Episode #63: Anti-Hustle Culture

In today’s episode, we’re going to talk about anti-hustle culture. We’ll finish up with a weekly actionable tip! We’ll finish up with a weekly actionable tip!

Diane Sanfilippo: But if you are going to ignore how hard you worked for the thing that people know you for, and try and sell them a whole other approach; I just felt like it was really disingenuous in that moment. And I am in, fully, on the idea of the anti-hustle now. And how do we slow down the pace to be a lot more respectful for the balance of life.

Welcome to Driven; a show about business, life, and wellness from two confident, curious women who are pulling back the curtain on what it’s like being an entrepreneur. Each week, join hosts Diane Sanfilippo and Cassy Joy Garcia talk about being your best, showing up for your dreams, and kicking self-doubt to the curb.

Diane is a business whisperer, best-selling author, and plant-hobbyist based in San Francisco. Cassy Joy is the founder of www.FedandFit.com, best-selling author, and casserole enthusiast. She calls San Antonio, Texas, home.

Cassy Joy: In today’s episode, we’re going to talk about anti-hustle culture.


  1. What’s on my plate [1:04]
  2. Shop Talk: The anti-hustle culture [20:30]
  3. Alignment and flow [32:18]
  4. Tip of The Week: Find where you can flow [49:25]

1.  What’s on my plate [1:04]

Diane Sanfilippo: What’s on My Plate. In this segment, we talk about what’s happening in our businesses, and in our lives for the week. Cassy, what’s going on?

Cassy Joy: Well I had a really delicious lunch! {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Cassy Joy: I was telling Diane before we pressed record.

Diane Sanfilippo: She started to tell me, and I was like; tell me on the show. I was like; is it good? She said, of course it’s good. I said, well tell me on the show. I want to hear it for the first time.

Cassy Joy: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: Live with everyone else. Tell me about your lunch.

Cassy Joy: Well now I have plenty of time to look up the actual name; I don’t have an excuse, but I still didn’t do it. It was so good, Diane.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Cassy Joy: I made a demo this morning. I cooked up a soup for Instagram. And we’re going to have it for dinner. I can’t eat the same thing for lunch and dinner. I mean, I can. I physically can. But I don’t want to. And I was like; we’re going to save this soup for summer. Oh, I have a Balanced Bites meal in the freezer. And I pulled it out; and is it your Bolognese? I think.

Diane Sanfilippo: Probably.

Cassy Joy: With the mushrooms in there?

Diane Sanfilippo: Was it chili? It might have been chili. Sloppy Joe Chili?

Cassy Joy: Sloppy Joe Chili. That’s what it was. It was so good.

Diane Sanfilippo: It’s a classic. People love that dish. I think we’ve done that one from the beginning. It started, and then it was off the menu, and then it came back. So yay. Yeah, people love that one.

Cassy Joy: Never, ever change it.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Cassy Joy: And send me a whole box of it. Because it’s so good.

Diane Sanfilippo: We rotate that one. Thank you, I’m so glad you love it. The Bolognese bake; I think it’s funny that’s that what you were unsure of, which it was. But it’s so similar because of the ground meat and the tomato-yness. But that one you would know because it has spaghetti squash and it has just a more Italian flavor profile. But yeah. Sloppy Joe Chili. That one kind of rotates on the menu with our butternut cocoa chili, which is also excellent.

Cassy Joy: Bring it on. I want all the chili.

Diane Sanfilippo: We’re in it. {laughs} They’re so good. They just work really well in that format. You know?

Cassy Joy: Yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: Because they’re almost better after you freeze them and come back to them.

Cassy Joy: Yes. I told Brandy. I finished it and I was like; that meal was on point.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughing}

Cassy Joy: And she was like; really? I was like, it was so good. And it just works; there’s nothing missing. You could have just cooked it up on the stove, and it would have been good. But I feel like it’s even better because it got to be itself {laughing} for a while.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughing} A chili is good when you’re like; you just sit there in the corner for a while. I’ll get to you.

Cassy Joy: Yes!

Diane Sanfilippo: When I’m ready. Yeah.

Cassy Joy: That’s what we cook on the weekends. I make it during early nap time, and then it just sits there on low simmer. Anyway. It was delicious. Y’all go get you some, if you can. And if you can’t, I’m very sorry for the mean tease.

Diane Sanfilippo: I’m so glad you loved it. Thank you.

Cassy Joy: Thank you, Diane! So my next update is; I have my bullet point here to trigger my mind was, unscarying supplements. It’s so interesting; I don’t know if I am alone in this. Or maybe there’s some community here. I’m a holistic nutritionist by trade; both Diane and I are. Or, that’s what my training is in. And my business has primarily; almost entirely been focused on nutrition via food. And that’s where I focused my education, and my content, and my work. And y’all, I take supplements myself at home, but I don’t ever talk about them. Because I don’t know necessarily how to answer all the questions that might come up. And it’s such a world riddled with quick promises; you know, snake oil type salesmanship is out there in that world so much. I just didn’t know enough. I was afraid there were landmines I couldn’t see. So I never really talked about it. And now as a mom of two little girls, it’s been this question of; how do I make sure that I’m providing a good baseline nutrition that’s protecting my children?

So I started doing some research. And I came across a brand. I am working with them formally at Fed and Fit, but talking about them here is not a part of the job, just so y’all know. But this Child Life Essentials brand I came across, and I really appreciated their sourcing. They’re gluten free. They don’t add any sugar. They don’t have gummies, they do soft melts instead. Everything has been very carefully and thoughtful considered when formulating these supplements. And they’re specifically formulated by a functional medicine doctor pediatrician from California. He started the company 20 years ago. He grew up in New Zealand. He just has this very unique world view on nutrition and supplementation that I really value.

So I got these for my children. Because I also didn’t understand that you can supplement young children that early. Of course, when you leave the hospital, you know that you can provide your baby with D3. But that’s a whole other conversation.

Anyway. I decided I was going to lean in in the spirit of doing things scary. I try to always do something a little bit scary, and I leaned into learning about supplements. And this company; I just hosted, Diane. When we started this I just finished it up. But this panel discussion, I helped moderate for Child Life Essentials with a bunch of 40 to 50 content creators and voices in the functional health and wellness and food world. Dieticians and nutritionists getting together to just have a think tank about the world of supplementation.

And it was so empowering, Diane, and I don’t know that I’ve been just so freshly inspired and invigorated on a topic like that, kind of in our wheelhouse, in such a long time. Really what it did was it made me feel less scared to show; I will not “should” on another parent.

Diane Sanfilippo: Right.

Cassy Joy: That’s not going to be the conversation. But show what choices we are making at home with our children, and maybe explain some of those whys. So it just opened up a whole new world for me. It feels less scary to talk about it now in one or both of my platforms.

Diane Sanfilippo: I love that.

Cassy Joy: It was exciting. So I just have this fun little fire now burning. Which, you know, we love new fires.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughing}

Cassy Joy: To nurture. And the same family friend who said the words; oh, what is it. Go ugly early. That was his catch phrase; Tom Sheehan. Another one of his favorite sayings was; if you’ve got a hot idea, stay close to a heat source.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Cassy Joy: So me telling you is nurturing that flame. Ok, and my last update for the day is I just stumbled across a new podcast. And you know, I know you only have a limited number of podcasting hours to listen.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughing}

Cassy Joy: But I think this one is worth mentioning. It is this podcast called Happy as a Mother. And it is a therapist who focuses on working with mothers in particular, of young children in particular. I think; I hope I’m not putting words in her mouth or making things up. But from what I’ve gathered from a handful of episodes, that’s what she does. And it’s just so valuable. Such wonderful information. And if you’re just looking for research-based information on parenting, child rearing, development of young minds and bodies, it might be a really neat thing to tune into.

Diane Sanfilippo: Love that.

Cassy Joy: How about you? Tell me what’s going on?

Diane Sanfilippo: What’s so funny is, I think podcasts are such an interesting realm where we can discover the things that we’re interested in and want to learn about. Or, we want just entertainment and an escape. And I’m just going to ride the podcast train for a second there. But for entertainment and escape, I’m obsessed with listening to Office related podcasts. Like, The Office, not an office. So, Office Ladies, and I think I talked about this before; an Oral History of the Office. Brian Baumgardner, who played Kevin on the show. He really brings everyone together. It’s a much more highly produced show, where it’s like they recorded for X number of days, and people really pulled clips and produced the whole thing.

I am so fascinated by how smart a lot of TV creators and writers are. And how thoughtful. And because I’m so interested in personalities and character of humans, I’m also interested in the way that people who are writers and actors can portray other humans. So I find that really fascinating. Just, human behavior is such a world of interest to me.

Cassy Joy: Yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: So of course, you know my obsession with learning about things like Scientology and cults. So leaning into that human behavior thing, I was also listening to the Hidden Brain. Somebody tipped me off to this show not long ago. Hidden Brain. And I was listening to an episode about the logic of rage.

Cassy Joy: Ooh.

Diane Sanfilippo: I listen to all kinds of things that are in that vein. Anyway. And we will talk later about why. You and I have talked about other podcasts that are about entrepreneurship. And I’ve listened to some in the past, or personal development. Like, I get into some of that stuff. And then I don’t. And I heard something in my recent Human Design reading that I was like; well that would be why. So we’ll come back to that.

But anyway. Love podcasts. When do you listen? I feel like; when is your life every quiet to listen to a podcast? Because you just have a lot going on.

Cassy Joy: I do. It takes me forever to get through anything. I also try to listen to audio books, and I go back and forth. Like, poor Becoming, by Michelle Obama. I’ve been just…

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughing} That’s a long one.

Cassy Joy: Chipping away at. I listen; I have a 10-minute drive to my office from my house. I listen when I go there. And I also started actually going to workout in the mornings, and that’s about a 15-minute drive. But because my time to listen is so precious. Normally, early in the morning at 430 in the morning, I would want to listen to some music or something soothing to wake me up. And I was like; nope, I’ve got to learn about from this child psychologist {laughing} and now’s the time. So, in the car is the answer.

Diane Sanfilippo: Do you listen to podcasts at a fast speed as well as audiobooks? This is a fun fact.

Cassy Joy: I do.

Diane Sanfilippo: As a very intensely audio focused learner, I actually almost can’t listen at a faster speed. Unless the person’s speech cadence is particularly slow. I’ve tried it. And I’m like; I’m just losing it. The whole experience is just off. But I think that’s such a great, smart way to get more content going in. But because I’m so sensitive to it. And like, I like the slow process of listening and getting a moment to process it. Because that’s so strongly how I learn. So it’s such an interesting thing. But that’s a tip for those of you who can absorb information.

Cassy Joy: It is.

Diane Sanfilippo: From it being faster.

Cassy Joy: On something like an informational podcast that’s published weekly, I will increase the speed by; not a whole lot. Depending, like you said, the cadence of their voice. But on something like Becoming, that audiobook that Michelle Obama reads herself, I actually don’t fast forward. Because I want to be respectful of how she’s portraying it.

Diane Sanfilippo: That makes sense.

Cassy Joy: And the cadence is a part of that, and I want to fully experience it. So it depends.

Diane Sanfilippo: That makes sense. Yeah. I can listen to Voxer messages a little faster.

Cassy Joy: I am 3X on Voxer. {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: I’m like; get to it. Get to it. I ramble. Ok. Well, so there’s more podcasts, but please don’t let them take over your listening to our show.

Cassy Joy: {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: Anyway. Updates. I think this is; we’re probably going to be creating two shows today while we sit here, just to give you a little peak behind the curtain. Somebody on team Balanced Bites will be away. Moriah will be away for a little bit. She’s getting married. So we’re kind of banking a couple of episodes ahead of time. But this is the last instance that we will be recording and I will be sitting in my former office in the house. So for this episode, and the next one I’ll be here. And then after that, in the pod room {laughs} is what I’m going to call it.

Cassy Joy: So exciting.

Diane Sanfilippo: Fully inspired by you. Honestly, this stuff; I mean, it was just a; I was ignited. That’s going to be my word for 2021. Is Ignite. I’ve decided.

Cassy Joy: I love it.

Diane Sanfilippo: But I was fully ignited that day I saw you speaking from your office in a white button-down shirt. I was like; this looks very productive and like I need space. I’ll never forget that trigger. Or spark, I should say. So yeah, next time we record. Hopefully the audio quality will work out.

So today, this episode is airing, we believe {laughs}, we think on 10/26. Just ahead of Halloween. But we launched our infused; organic infused sugars on October 4th. So this was; we’re just a few days after that now. And it was a really great launch. Very, very solid. I think it launched a little bit softer than the super blends overall. Which there are four of these; there were three of those. So that was the super trifecta, super garlic pizza, and super onion. Which doesn’t surprise me, because obviously spices are what we’re known for, and that type of spice blend I knew was pretty highly anticipated. But this one followed up pretty closely to that. I feel like we moved through a really good number of units. And I did not underestimate inventory, which has been a problem for me.

I have just not; I haven’t had my finger on the pulse of how much I think we’re going to sell in the first one to three days. And so now I kind of have an idea. At least, hopefully that will grow over time. So that we don’t just sell out in five days. Like, yeah it’s great to sell out of things. But I personally think that that customer experience is not great. I don’t want anyone to feel; having product scarcity is a thing. You don’t always want things to be around for forever. But as a customer, when something sells out in an hour or a day, to me that’s poor planning. I just think; and I think it’s a little obnoxious. And I think it’s very entitled and privileged to expect everyone to have money that first day.

So that’s just this broadening of my perspective on how do we become more inclusive. Especially because the brand that I’m building, it’s not the most price sensitive brand. I’m trying to be really aware of what I do with our earnings, as well, to kind of redistribute wealth. That’s a real sensitive topic for me. I’m trying to get better and better at that. But long story short, I don’t personally think that selling out of something in a day or three days is something to pat yourself on the back about. I think that says you didn’t plan and project properly.

Or, if you want to tell people ahead; I was only able to get a really limited amount. Because of supply, or because of what’s going on. Be transparent, if that’s the truth. You know, there are a lot of supply issues with COVID. Things are coming from around the world and that affects things. So, if there is a case where I want to create something and I truly don’t know. But I don’t like false scarcity. I just, I’m not into it.

Anyway. Long story short. We definitely have enough of those. And I’m really happy about that. People are asking how long we will have them. I don’t know for sure. I don’t know how quickly people will come back for this type of product. I don’t have a good way to predict that at this point. But we definitely have a pretty healthy amount of inventory, and if they’re selling quickly in the first week or so, I think I can do a small reorder that would come back before the end of the year. So sometime in December.

But anyway. Just thank to everyone who supports those launches. Thank you so much to those of you who are like; I don’t know what it is, but I’ll take two. Because that’s a response that I’ll get that I’m like; it’s deeply touching to me. Because the amount of trust that that takes is; that’s everything to me. As an Enneagram 8, somebody trusting me is the most important thing. So I’m just so pleased that that’s how people feel about what we’re doing. So thank you to everyone.

But yeah. I hope people love it, because it’s so fun. What’s more fun than a flavored sugar. And it’s been really cool to also see; I think this is something health coaches get really nervous about. And you know I’ve never been nervous about this because I just don’t have a very dogmatic point of view about health and nutrition, aside from the fact that I really am not a proponent of not eating animal foods. I just think if there are certain things that people can’t eat, there are certain things. But just based on human physiology and what we know about nutrients; so there’s that.

But that being said; yes, I wrote a book called the 21-Day Sugar Detox. I have three books in that series. And yes, I just released these sugars. We are not pouring multiple spoonfuls of them into our coffee. It’s literally like one gram. And I think it’s really interesting. I bet people would have been nervous for me to release sugar when these are the books that I’ve written. But the reality is; I’ve spent the last 5 or 6 years helping people understand my point of view. And this idea of getting your body to a place where you are metabolically flexible and you can eat all different kinds of foods. And it’s not about just not eating carbs or eating carbs. I wrote that Keto Quick Start book to help people who wanted to eat that way do it in a healthy balanced way. Thanks to Cassy for being like; hey, can you write this book. {laughs}

Cassy Joy: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: And I have a lot of experience with it. But that doesn’t mean I think that’s the way everybody needs to eat for forever. And if you do; great. If you don’t; here’s the balance. And that was really where Balanced Bites as a brand name got me to this place of; we’re not trying to do a paleo thing or a keto thing. It’s really about; whatever the balance is that works for you physically, emotionally, lifestyle wise, all around. I think I can really get behind that. Because I do not believe that it should be problematic for someone’s body to handle 1 gram or 2 grams of sugar. But again, there’s a context for it. And I’m happy to answer the questions.

But it was really well received. People were not in an uproar. And I was like; well, that’s the groundwork that I’ve done and the way that I’ve kind of paved for myself that people understand it. So yay. Huzzah!

Cassy Joy: {laughs}

2.  Shop Talk: The anti-hustle culture [20:30]

Cassy Joy: Shop Talk. In this segment, we’re going to talk about the anti-hustle culture. Diane. I am so excited about this conversation. It’s been one of those burrs in my saddle for a while. An irritant in many forms and fashions. And I think we might just take our time teasing it out.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Cassy Joy: So could you help set the groundwork. Could you help us define; I want to get into, there’s all kinds of applications for the word hustle. Right? There’s the side-hustle. There is The Hustle. Hustling. Do you care to give us some sweeping definitions?

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. Well, we’re going to talk about this anti-hustle culture. Which, I want to say just a couple of years ago we started to see this emerge. And all of it; if we could plot these trends alongside the growth of social media, I think that would be really interesting to look at. But there is hustle; just the general, you’re hustling.

Cassy Joy: {humming “do the hustle”}

Diane Sanfilippo: You’re in the grind.

Cassy Joy: Isn’t that the song? Do the hustle?

Diane Sanfilippo: We don’t have the rights to do that, I don’t think.

Cassy Joy: Just kidding! {laughing} Are they going to come at us?

Diane Sanfilippo: Hopefully not.

Cassy Joy: Air quotes “They”.

Diane Sanfilippo: I have no idea. There’s The Hustle. Then there’s the side hustle. And the side hustle presumes that you have a main source of income, and then this other thing you’re doing on the side. And I think that that notion of hustling is; you know, it takes extra work. It takes this extra energy. The idea of hustle.

My first meeting of the word hustle was on the soccer field. The cheerleaders were on the sidelines cheering. I remember. We had cheerleaders. I was on the varsity soccer team.

Cassy Joy: You did?

Diane Sanfilippo: Go me.

Cassy Joy: You were an athlete!

Diane Sanfilippo: This was many years ago. {laughs}

Cassy Joy: Man! I was on the varsity golf team. {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: That’s a thing. That’s real.

Cassy Joy: Only because there weren’t enough of us. I’m sorry. Continue.

Diane Sanfilippo: We had them cheering. And they cheer for football too, and spelling out the word hustle. Right? That was it. It was like; run down the field. Run hard, run fast. So that’s really where for me the idea of hustle is.

I’ve always kind of associated it with working hard. I haven’t associated it with this idea of working harder than, I don’t know, than you should for physical health or any of that. But this idea of anti-hustle kind of came up sort of as a counterpoint to the hustle culture. This; I think with the advent of the internet, it’s like everybody was able to do this extra thing on the side. You didn’t have to actually go anywhere necessarily. I mean, I would say in the past the hustle would have been; you know, you work full time and you have another job. A second job. That’s it.

And I know we’re going to talk more about that. But the anti-hustle really came up because; I think a lot of people honestly who had public facing businesses hit crashes and burned out. And had these energetic burnouts. And they were like; enough with this hustle.

I {laughs} really had a strong reaction to a lot of folks who were trying to pedal anti-hustle. Because they achieved their notoriety and success from the hustle. And I felt like that was really disingenuous for a lot of people to say; not to do what they did. But not to fully expose and admit; this is what got me here. And that’s something I used to talk about. I think I talked about this on the Balanced Bites podcast back in the day, too.

There were a lot of people who were like; we all need to not be hustling. You can do everything with balance. You know I like the word balance. But I was watching people say that, and I was like; yeah, but that’s like you saying you don’t work out every day and you don’t eat well, but you have this body. If you want to tell people you naturally became successful; you have a naturally toned shape, fine. Tell people what’s natural. But if you are going to ignore how hard you worked for the thing that people know you for and try and sell them a whole other approach, I just felt like it was really disingenuous in that moment. I think it’s fair to reconstruct an approach forward.

And I am in fully on the idea of the anti-hustle now, and how do we; we’ve talked about this on recent episodes. How do we slow down the pace to be a lot more respectful for the balance of life? Especially those of us who went through the hustle for X amount of years, to whatever degree. And who have people working with us who we don’t want to have burnout.

But that was really kind of my experience with it. Was this; ok, all these people achieved notoriety, success, fame, lots of followers, whatever it was, have these public facing businesses. And then started to just talk about how we shouldn’t do that. And I don’t know if you had that response or experience, too. But I was like; yeah, but that’s what you did. So we need to talk about that. I don’t know, that’s how I felt about it.

Cassy Joy: Yeah, it did. It felt very much exactly like what you just described. It’s this false portrayal of who you are. I feel like I am my mother’s daughter; I’m about to do it while I’m doing it. This is so meta; I think I’m using that phrase correctly. {laughs} Because my mom; something that she constantly does. You ask her a question and she provides you with more context than you ever, ever needed or wanted. And that’s just maybe how I was raised, a part of my fiber, a part of my being. But context really, really matters. The backstory really, really matters.

And whenever I talk and I possibly ramble on, it’s because I’m trying to be very intentional and careful about making sure that I provide backstory. And when someone would just come out on top of this beautiful business that they built that had incredible exposure, and you can tell that their output of work was at an incredibly fast clip for a period of time. And then they come back and they say; y’all. Peace, love, and take it easy, anti-hustle, all of these things, without providing context. Because there are ways to hustle. There are all kinds of ways why an anti-hustle culture actually does make sense.

But to your point, they said it in the meaning of; don’t work so hard. Without saying that they also did that. That they partook in it, and that they benefited from it. You know? And I think that matters.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yes. That’s it.

Cassy Joy: It totally devalues their statement by not providing that context. But, how many folks watching. Maybe 100%. Maybe 100% of the people listening here, they’re like; oh, I saw it plain as day. I knew exactly what was going on. That they were being disingenuous. Maybe everybody was wise to it. But just in case somebody isn’t; it upset me to think that this wool was being pulled over people’s eyes.

Diane Sanfilippo: That’s exactly how I felt about it. So now I remember where talked about this a bunch before. Build a Badass Business was a podcast that I did for 54 episodes. We have already exceeded that number. That’s the power of me not being on my own. Thank you Cassy Joy. But I did an episode, number 36. It was when to hustle and when to flow. And that was kind of the way I looked at it. I think selling people fully on anti-hustle culture is a bit of a lie. I think there are times when people need to put their foot on the gas and put in some extra effort. But I don’t think that we need to be doing that full speed 100% of the time. And I don’t think that’s healthy or balanced.

And finding the way that we each can either hustle more, or hustle less, or whatever it is. I think that’s a very unique thing that we’ll figure out. I know Cassy and I want to talk about that as it relates to things like Human Design. As it relates to things like building a business. I just never want to tell someone that taking it slowly will get you the results you want if they’re trying to achieve something in a certain amount of time that just; it doesn’t. It’s like a misalignment of goals and work that will take you there.

Cassy Joy: Mm-hmm.

Diane Sanfilippo: Does that make sense? Anyway. This anti-hustle. I totally get it. A lot of people burned out. And I’m all about the context and; you know what? I made this mistake, let me try and teach you how not to make the same mistakes I did. Right? Because it burned me out. And I know that you have a feeling on this, too, because different people get energy different ways, sustain energy different ways, feel differently after energy output than others. I’m very much; I mean, I have such a physical manifestation of how I feel on the inside all the time. I’ve always been a sprinter. I’m like, I will do that 50-yard dash. Do not ask me to run a mile. Do not. I can do that, and I will be the fastest sprinter, and then I will sit down.

Cassy Joy: {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} I am not; I was like, I did anything I could do to get out of running the mile. I’m not built for that. Have you seen my thighs? I am built to sprint. Hello.

Cassy Joy: Soccer superstar.

Diane Sanfilippo: I mean, that was it. Volleyball, soccer. I was like; here we go. So I think that was something that I always related to. Was this hustle, and then that flow. So I think when people were saying, you know; don’t hustle, slow down. It was like, they hit this wall. A lot of people; and we’re in the health space. A lot of people we know had major health crashes after working really hard. And continued to do that. Continued to really struggle to find the balance for them. So I do think that this anti-hustle kind of came out of that.

I think as we’re talking about, I don’t know that it’s necessarily just; I don’t think the anti-hustle means anti-side gig that you’re passionate about. That might not be your main source of income at this time. I don’t think that’s what we mean when we say anti-hustle. I think it’s more like working, working, working, not resting, not whatever. Socializing or eating or living.

Cassy Joy: Right. We’re referring to hustle as a pace of which to work.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.

Cassy Joy: And I know very, very little about this. But I know there is at least a whole lot more to this conversation about the cultural meaning of the word hustle, depending on cultural context. And so what Diane really are speaking about is particularly the use of the term hustle as a pace with which you work. Because it can also be used, like you said, a side hustle is like a side work. It’s indifferent of pace. Right?

Diane Sanfilippo: Yes.

Cassy Joy: Or independent of pace.

Diane Sanfilippo: And there’s not necessarily; I don’t know. A goal of achievement of a certain level with that. It’s just, because it’s on the side. Just like, this side hustle. It’s just called that.

3. Alignment and flow [32:18]

Diane Sanfilippo: The other thing I think is really interesting about the pace; the pace of life, the pace of work, the pace of creation, is that we often get stuck in comparison. Which is what then is driving this inner anxiety and pressure to work at a pace that feels out of alignment.

Cassy Joy: Yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: Right? So that’s something that this idea of being in alignment. I think that’s why I’m gravitating towards this idea of Human Design. Because it’s so much of an energetic balance, and that’s the thing that I have personally felt for the last, I would say, 2 to 4 years of however many years ago when I was like; I don’t time block. I cannot put things on my calendar. I don’t know how I’m going to feel. And it’s frustrating to be that way. And this is very tightly connected to my Human Design type.

So when I heard someone put words to it, I was like; I have been feeling that so thank you for defining it for me. Where someone is trying to nail down a time to have calls with me all the time, and I’m like; I want to show up 100% for you and I don’t know if I can do it that day and that time. Or I get the sense that I’m going to be tired then. And I’m not trying to dodge the conversation. I’m really trying to show up to it properly.

But I think this is something that people are not always really in touch with. How their energy flows. So then we get stuck in the current of, just a fast pace. Because that’s kind of what our society, in America, has become. Where it’s this expectation of this constant. I mean, I call it a hamster wheel. Where it’s like; you just have to keep running. Your thoughts?

Cassy Joy: Yes. I have lots of thoughts. I had 47 thoughts while you were talking.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughing}

Cassy Joy: They’re like butterflies; I was just trying to grab one right as it was flying away. {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: I have to write everything down. 42. There’s no saving them.

Cassy Joy: {laughs} There’s no saving them at any point in my life, but I’m still telling myself the lie that I can save them. You know, one of my thoughts is that, one thing that comes to mind is this distinction between the desire to go, go, go when you feel like you’re in the creation seat. When you are creating something as the business owner or the business creator. Or maybe you work on a commission. Right? So you can actually have a very direct impact on your take-home pay or maybe influence or what you’re building in terms of a brand and reach.

And then there’s this other mentality of work that; and what I’m getting at eventually is that I love the intersection between the two. There’s this other mentality of what I kind of referred to in a previous episode as a J-O-B. But a job, where you go, you feel disconnected from your income and what you take home. It’s almost independent of your efforts, to a certain degree, and you log the hours.

My parents; I don’t know if this is something that I should probably talk about {laughs}. But they refer to them; they run a company of about 200 people. And there’s a distinction in their organization between people who are in this flow of work, and then people who watch the clock. Clock watchers. They get there at a time, and they leave at a time. And there’s nothing wrong with that.

But it’s like; they’re disconnected from their work, and from their flow, and feeling meaning and being inspired by their work and their workplace. And maybe a part of that is that they’re just not in the right place to work.

But I like this idea. We think about the hustle, and I feel like the creator seat. There’s a higher temptation to fall into this overworking at a place that’s out of flow with your natural state of being. And what I love to do, now several years in. Because I’ve totally seen that. Tempted in, I’ve been on the side of the volcano ready to jump in. I remember when everybody; I feel like everybody. Right? Everybody, air quotes, was writing a book. I had been blogging for 5 years. Writing for 5 years. I had plenty of content. I was in talks with a publisher. And I remember when the publisher was like; do you want to go? Do you want to jump? Do you want to do this thing? I was like; ugh, I do. I really do. I feel like I should. I should, shouldn’t I? I should do this. I should do this right now. Everybody else is doing it right now.

And for me, it wasn’t in alignment with the quality content that I had internally committed myself to. I was like; when can I do this? And that was my full stop. Right? So I had to set up almost bumpers on my progress to make sure that I had rules in place that my hustle didn’t just run awry and getting a little squirrely.

But what I’m trying to get to is I think there’s an opportunity to marry these two different mentalities together. This is kind of what I want for my Fed and Fit team. For example, when I think about it, and for myself as a work person now and what a luxury and a privilege to be able to be in that place. But to say; we can watch the clock, and we can also be in flow. And I want my team to be able to say; you know what? I’m going to go work from home. Or I’m going to take off the rest of the afternoon because my brain is not here. And I would rather complete this project on a Saturday morning, when it’s quiet, over a cup of coffee.

I want that kind of work environment. And I think that allows them to be more efficient with their time. So they can then also go live their lives. And they get to probably produce better work. Probably produce more work in fewer time. But it’s not about hustling. It’s about honoring and respecting the limited amount of time that we have on earth, and them being able to use it however they want. Does that make sense?

Diane Sanfilippo: It does. I think that’s partially us as evolving business owners being good stewards of the time and energy of the people who work with, and being respectful of that and just trusting people enough to let them manage that energy and knowing that they want to show up 100%. I think that’s kind of why I always felt like I didn’t fit into a typical school system, showing up on time. Doing the work at a certain time. I was like; I’m going to be late today. I wrote myself a note.

Cassy Joy: {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: I can sign my mother’s signature.

Cassy Joy: Did you really?

Diane Sanfilippo:  I was tardy 32 times my senior year. Absent 23.

Cassy Joy: Ooh.

Diane Sanfilippo: I was not that into it. I was like; y’all are; I did not say y’all back then. But whatever was happening first period, I was like; I could teach this class. Next. {laughs} I did get up and teach the class one day. Because I was like; they’re not understanding the sodium potassium pump. Let me help you. {laughs}

Cassy Joy: Did you really? Oh my gosh.

Diane Sanfilippo: She was like a first-year bio teacher. And I was like; you’re not explaining it in a way that they can understand. Let me try {laughing}. Jerk.

Cassy Joy: I would have loved to be a fly on the wall. {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: I just remember it extremely clearly. So here’s a quote. I don’t know where it comes from. Feel free to let us know.

Cassy Joy: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: Somebody said this to me recently, because it came up. And it comes up a lot in working with companies where I am not the boss. Which is not my favorite situation. But your emergency is not my priority.

Cassy Joy: Mmm.

Diane Sanfilippo: So that is something that I try to take to heart where; one, I make sure I’m not prioritizing somebody’s emergency that’s not real. I’m saying work emergency. Fake emergency. Honestly, somebody’s website being down; hmm. Important and a big deal and we should tend to that. But also, this is not life or death. So to me, actual emergencies, they’re very few things that would be an actual emergency.

So, when someone else tries to create hustle in me over something that’s not real, should not be real emergency. I try very hard not to react and respond to it in that way. I also am working on not pushing that response in my team.

Cassy Joy: Yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: And what you were alluding to just a moment ago was boundaries when it comes to our work and our energy. {laughs} And one thing that I’ve been doing; because my ideas and energy are so unpredictable, is I’ve been texting myself notes to give to my team members the next time I talk to them so that I can respect their boundaries and not text them at 8 p.m. just because I had the idea. It’s not that late, but that’s going to be a demand of their attention in that moment. And it’s not that important.

Cassy Joy: Absolutely.

Diane Sanfilippo: It’s just an idea. I can save it. That’s a place for me to go back and look at it.

Cassy Joy: Totally. To double down on that. So a team member of mine, when we’re recording this, she is taking some much-needed time off. Which, as a part of her vacation. Which I hold very loosely in my mind the amount of time that they can take. I’m like; I don’t even remember what the number is. Go. If you want to go, please go. Enjoy yourself. Take some time off.

So she’s doing that. And there are; it’s a lesson learned. Because there were some things that I should have done to better prepare while she was away. But there are some things that I cannot do without her here. It also shows how wonderfully valuable my team is. Because every time they’re gone, their absence is felt deeply.

But she’s away and there are some big balls that I dropped because I didn’t prepare while she was away. But, am I messaging her saying; hey, could you please send me XYZ or could you do XYZ? Even though it would probably take her 10 minutes to do. It’s very, very important that I respect the out of office time that she has. It’s very important to me. And even though I think she may, if she’s listening. Which she does listen to this. If and when she does listen to this, she’s going to be like; I wish you would have just told me. Because I know she would have been happy to just take care of it. But that’s very, very important.

And I think that’s; it’s feeding into this anti-hustle vibe that I think we’re trying to nurture.

Diane Sanfilippo: Right.

Cassy Joy: To your point; it’s an emergency in some context. And there are people who wanted that piece of information that I was not able to give them because I didn’t prepare for this person being gone on my team. And to those people who would be on the receiving end, ultimately yes it feels like an emergency to them. But me as the filter, filtering this information to the person who is on the team who would be delivering it, it’s not actually an emergency. Somebody is not actually in harms way. And they can wait 3 days. They can wait 3 days. It will be inconvenient, and it’s ok.

And I think just kind of building those kinds of; being transparent and communicating, but not feeling like I owe everybody this perfect delivery all the time.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yes. We don’t always have to jump when someone says jump.

Cassy Joy: Yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: I do think, to put not quite a bow on this. But there was another little nugget that I wanted to mention. Because I’m just learning about it. I don’t really know the depth of it, or how to fully educate everyone listening about this. But it’s something that I’m thinking more about, so I wanted to share it because it’s important and I think it’s valuable to consider.

The notion of the culture that we’re in; here, at least in the United States, of a capitalist type of culture. People have; you know, somehow the “American Dream” seems to be this capitalism dream. Where it’s like; I have unlimited potential to earn and do this. People wanted to all become millionaires or now billionaires and have a private jet and do all the things and have all this money. And ultimately, that typically happens. Somebody who becomes a billionaire. This is a whole other conversation, I realize. But I’m just getting it out there. It’s usually done at a pace, and at the expense, of many other people not being treated fairly or paid well. And it’s not the vibe we’re going for when we build our businesses.

And one of the other things I’m learning; and again, I am not an anti-racism educator, so I’m just going to introduce this because it resonates with me. Is the idea that this has a lot of white supremacist roots. This idea that we should just push harder, earn more, get more money, hoard the money. It just doesn’t feel like the right direction. And it doesn’t feel like that’s the life I want every single day.

Even, to give you a real-life example of how this plays out. One of my business partner copackers, there were some things that were happening in the production facility with employees of hers. And it was like; ok, this is happening, and we’re down one employee for the week. Because someone was sick, or had to travel, or something happened. And I said; do I need to push back the timing of this, at least another week or longer? If you need the time, that’s ok. I’m not going to make other people rush for an arbitrary date that I would love to launch something, because it’s just not that important. People’s actual lives, and people being treated fairly and well and being nurtured in their actual life, is more important than a launch date for my stupid thing. My product. It’s not like a life saving thing I’m creating over here.

So again, I hate that’s ultimately this litmus test of; are we saving someone’s life here? Yes, no? If it’s a no, y’all can wait another day. Another week. Another month. Whatever it’s going to be. Because I’m trying to dismantle all of that in my own head of; like, that pressure and that rush. And I can absolutely own that five-plus years ago; even three-plus years ago, I wasn’t able to see it. Maybe some of it was career achievement, insecurity, or who knows what. But getting to this place where I saw what that did to the team that was working with me. I saw how it created imbalances in their lives outside of work. And I saw that was not; that’s not what I want to cultivate. And I don’t want to cultivate it in a copacker relationship. I want the way that I interact with people and the way that I build a business to be my legacy. And I don’t want it to be this; I made what I’m doing so critical and important that everyone else had to just get in line.

Cassy Joy: Yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: And I will say to go even deeper into where that becomes self-awareness. I know as a type 8; I know as a Manifestor, as an ENTJ. I know that everything about my personality could be the ugliest of ugly. We have seen things like this in the world. The ugliest of ugly. But with the power to take people with me who will follow it. So I’m constantly checking myself. Because I know that people will get in line. And that’s not the line I want to make. You know what I mean? Cassy’s like, whooo!

Cassy Joy: I love it. I’m just sitting back and enjoying.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} I feel like that was a little preachy for a moment. But just really deep; how am I showing up differently. Every single interaction that I have to help undo that hustle culture that other people are also in, and they don’t even realize they’re in it. And I don’t want to feed into that more.

4. Tip of The Week: Find where you can flow [49:25]

Diane Sanfilippo: Tip of The Week! In this segment, we give you one tip that you can take action on this week to move your business or life forward. Cassy, why don’t you give us a tip?

Cassy Joy: Ok. So today’s tip is to just give yourself a check in. See where you fall on the spectrum of hustle. Are you hustling in areas of your life for the sake of feeling like you need to go, go, go and do, do, do? At this really, really fast pace. Is there any true emergency on the line? What are you sacrificing to work at that kind of pace?

See what that is. It doesn’t necessarily have to be work. It could also be household chores, right? Where are you drawing this feeling like, I need to go faster, better, stronger, in your life. Where is it essentially; where is this culture bleeding out and where can you maybe check it and start to live in more of this state of flow that we were talking about.

Diane Sanfilippo: That’s it for Driven this week. If you liked this episode, be sure to subscribe in Apple podcast, on Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Follow us on Instagram @TheDrivenPodcast. Cassy is @CassyJoyGarcia as well as @FedandFit and I am @DianeSanfilippo as well as @BalancedBites.

Tune in next week for another brand new episode.