Episode #23: All About the Enneagram (Personality Tests & Entrepreneurship Mini-Series, Part 1)

In today’s episode, we’re bringing you the first of our 3-part mini series on personality tests! We’re kicking it off with a conversation about the enneagram. Then we’ll finish the show with a weekly actionable tip.

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Diane Sanfilippo: Knowing that I have three 9s on team Balanced Bites, one thing I consistently work on is either letting them know ahead of time what the questions are that I’m going to be asking them so they can be very prepared; or asking a question, putting it out there, and not calling on them first to answer it. Giving them a moment to answer. Maybe letting other people answer first, so they can kind of see how their response fits into what we’re talking about. All of that has been really helpful.

Welcome to Driven; a show about business, life, and wellness from two confident, curious women who are pulling back the curtain on what it’s like being an entrepreneur. Each week, join hosts Diane Sanfilippo and Cassy Joy Garcia talk about being your best, showing up for your dreams, and kicking self-doubt to the curb.

Diane is a business whisperer, best-selling author, and plant-hobbyist based in San Francisco. Cassy Joy is the founder of www.FedandFit.com, best-selling author, and casserole enthusiast. She calls San Antonio, Texas, home.

Diane Sanfilippo: In today’s episode, we’re bringing you the first of our three-part miniseries on personality tests. We’re kicking it off with a conversation about the Enneagram. Then we’ll finish the show with a weekly actionable tip.


  1. Shop Talk: The Enneagram [2:03]
  2. Shop Talk: Type 1 [13:08]
  3. Shop Talk: Type 2 [20:42]
  4. Shop Talk: Type 3 [27:11]
  5. Shop Talk: Type 4 [34:35]
  6. Shop Talk: Type 5 [40:49]
  7. Shop Talk: Type 6 [44:46]
  8. Shop Talk: Type 7 [52:06]
  9. Shop Talk: Type 8 [58:01]
  10. Shop Talk: Type 9 [1:08:25]
  11. Resources for more information [1:14:50]
  12. Tip of The Week: Take a test [1:18:42]

Diane Sanfilippo: Today’s podcast is sponsored in part by Vital Choice Wild Seafood and Organics. America’s leading purveyor of premium, sustainable seafood and grass-fed meats, and a certified B corporation. Holiday season means parties and meals with family and friends, so now is the time to stock up on deliciously healthy foods you’ll be proud to serve. Vital Choice offers a wide selection of wild sea foods, grass-fed meats and poultry, and zesty organic soups. The perfect paleo-friendly fare for holiday feasting. And they make hosting easy with luscious nova lox, Alaskan crab, frozen at sea spot prawns, and much more. Be sure to save 15% on one regular order with the promo code DRIVEN or get $15 off your first Vital Box with the promocode DRIVENVB from now through the end of the year.

1.  Shop Talk: The Enneagram [2:03]

Cassy Joy: Shop Talk; which we are combining today with What’s on my Plate. In this segment, we talk about the topics that are on both our minds and yours. We’ll cover all sides of the issue, and hopefully land somewhere concise, actionable, and helpful. And Diane and I were chatting before this. We said; well, what’s on our plate? We’re both really working to deep dive on the Enneagram in our workplace. Whether it’s in our larger; by that I mean in terms of number of people, that we work with on our Beautycounter teams or in our own personal businesses. Is that fair?

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, that’s totally fair. It’s super top of mind on team Balanced Bites and definitely applying to the Beautycounter team, as well.

Cassy Joy: Yes. So today we’re talking about the Enneagram. We are going to cover an overview of the test/the framework, the nine types, our favorite resources out there on the subject, and then we’re actually going to share a little bit about our own types. How we use this system in our own organizations. How we use it to recruit, manage, motivate, and then connect with our larger audience.

Ok, so to kick it off. Diane, would you please explain to me what the heck is the Enneagram for the folks who are like ennea-what?

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, Enneagram. So, first and foremost, one of the websites that I love the most is EnneagramInstitute.com. And we’ll get into this more when we talk about other resources. But before you even get into the rest of this episode, I would love to send people over to EnneagramInstitute.com so that you can take the test. We are not sponsored. We’re not associated with them in any way. It does cost $12. I highly, highly, highly recommend paying the $12 and taking that test. Especially if you are struggling to figure out your type just going through listening to this episode and reading things on social media, etc.

So, what is the Enneagram? The Enneagram is a framework that helps people to understand more about their personality type based on what their core fear is as well as what their core desire is. So a lot of times we think about personality as an outward expression; and it obviously has an outward expression. And it has very much to do with the way that we relate to one another. One thing I said recently to; I don’t know if I was talking to my husband or who I was talking to. But I was like; this whole Enneagram thing; it doesn’t really make sense in a bubble.

Anybody who has ever gone to therapy, for example. If you’re in therapy and you’re not either talking about a friendship, a partnership, a spouse, a parent. Some kind of relationship, your personality; it almost doesn’t matter when it’s not in relation to another. That’s one of the biggest things about these personality types. If you’re alone in a room; you are who you are. It’s when you begin relating to other people. Working with other people. Having to collaborate, etc. That this stuff really comes outward. Does that make sense?

Cassy Joy: Very well put.

Diane Sanfilippo: It’s like; who you are by yourself; yes you are this person when you read the description. But it is always about how you relate to other people. How you respond to things. How you respond to situations. How you make decisions; etc., etc. So I think that’s really important for people to know.

One other thing about the Enneagram that I really want people to know is that it is a framework. And it is not something that changes. So a lot of people say; well, I used to be a this and now I’m a that. That’s now how it works. because the core of how you developed as a human; your core trauma. That is not something that will change. However; you can grow and develop through different levels of health within the framework. So what that will tend to look like, is; often this does happen as people get older but not always. Aging is not always the way to growth. But the older we get, the harder it is sometimes to pin down your type when you have developed into a healthier and healthier version. So you kind of have this less caricature like presentation of your type. Does that make sense? It’s like, somebody who is just a quintessential 8, and all the negative things that I feel come with that, are so obvious. That doesn’t mean that somebody who is a very healthy 8 isn’t still obviously an 8, for example, as I’m an 8. But the older you get, I think the more self-aware you are, the more you tune into this, and work on yourself, and work to improve the aspects of yourself that can be improved. Again, in relation to others. Especially, you’ll notice that you develop through these levels of health.

And EnneagramInstitute.com has great information on that. It will show you; and sometimes it’s a real slap in the face when you read the unhealthy levels, the average levels, and the healthy levels. But what you might also see is your former self; when you read these average and unhealthy levels, for example. You’re like; you know what? That was me as a teenager. Or that was me in college. Or whenever it was. Or that was me last year. Or that was me in a moment. In a moment, you can move to this unhealthy place. And what I love about these levels of development is for each of us in our type, it shows us what is our highest and best self? When we are at our best, what does that look like?

And that has been extremely helpful for me. Because I have done what I consider to be a complete 180 in the way that I work with my team in the last, I would say, 5 years with team Balanced Bites. Because I can see so many moments where I was not as healthy as I am now. And the way that we all work together is just so much better as a result of just me as the leader getting to a healthier place. Especially; I mean, I think it’s true for all types. I don’t want to say that especially as an 8. But an unhealthy 8 can be a really, really painful thing for the people around them. {laughs} But I think that can be true of all types.

Cassy Joy: Well I think this drills down to; to be a really powerful leader, whether you have a team, like Diane and I do in our own companies, or you’re working at another organization where you’re working with people; or you’re online and you’re trying to build a community with other folks. I think, to Diane’s point, to really connect with folks in a meaningful way that lands how you intend it to land, you have to know yourself. To be a leader, you have to know yourself first and foremost. Otherwise, you’re entering into a conversation speaking a different language. It’s paying no mind to what other people will receive or will not receive, so on and so forth. And some of your tendencies.

And I think; Diane and I have kind of talked about this a little bit offline. When we hear about people in leadership positions who don’t deep dive on personality tests, or frameworks, or to better understand how they show up in stressful environments or in periods of growth, I’m shocked. I’m shocked when leaders don’t want to better themselves in that regard. I’m not saying you have to deep dive on the Enneagram; I’m going to speak for Diane a little bit. But this has been probably the most powerful of the frameworks out there we’re putting into this personality test miniseries. But I think this has been the most powerful one out there.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.

Cassy Joy: And it’s also because there are so many. I’m going to quickly go over the structure of the Enneagram just to give you a quick birds-eye view. But like Diane said; there are nine types in the Enneagram. And just to kind of rewind; what’s the history of the Enneagram. You can Google it and you can do some research. It’s one of the oldest personality frameworks that is less about putting you in a box and telling you, “this is who you are.” Like, let’s say, Myers-Briggs, right? I am an EN… what am I?

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Cassy Joy: ENTJ? {laughs} See I don’t even know. I’m these four letters, and then people want to print them on shirts, and then it just kind of feels like a little bit of a label that you are. You are these behaviors. Whereas the Enneagram, like she’s saying, is a much more dynamic framework that you can live within. There’s a part of you that touches on all of these different nine types. So it’s just really interesting.

So there are nine types. Each type has a wing. So when you take an Enneagram test out there, what you’re probably going to find is it’s going to say; you are, let’s say you’re most likely a type 4, and your wing is most likely a 3 wing. The wing in an Enneagram are the two numbers next to you. So if you are a type four, then your wings would be a type 3 and a type 5. And you’ll have one of those wings as more dominant than the other. So when you see people online, and they’re saying, “Oh, I’m a type 4, 3 wing.” That’s what they mean. It just means that they are a type 4 of the Enneagram, and we’ll go over what those mean, and they have a lot of type 3 tendencies.

One of the favorite things that I’ve heard recently is that; because my number, I’ll get into, I identify with both of my wings. Even though I have one that’s very dominant. And I like this phrase, that you need both wings to fly. You know; it’s just a good thing to keep in mind. Just because you have one that’s dominant does not mean; and that’s still true of the enneagram at large. Just because you’re dominant in one number does not mean that you won’t find things that you identify with the others.

And as Diane said; I really believe that when you grow in health over the years, if you are somebody that does a lot of personal development and reflection, you will see yourself kind of even out and have strengths representative of all the numbers. I remember when my dad took the Enneagram test; {laughs} I was flabbergasted. I would never have guessed his number. And he was like; yep. That’s me. He’s also a type 8.

Let’s see; each type has a stress and a growth arrow. So it’s going to show you in stress, you point to this number and you show the worst qualities of this number when you are in stress. And in growth, you point to this other number, and you show the best qualities of that number. And like she said; there are 9 levels of health, or however you want to rank it, and then three subtypes. So this is a layered onion; I’m thinking of Donkey on Shrek! {laughing} This is a lot of layers to this framework. And you don’t have to understand all of it for it to be powerful and useful to you. But there is enough here to study.

Diane and I are not coaches. We’re not trained experts on the Enneagram. We have been studying it in our own organizations for years now. And have found it to be really effective. So that’s really; we’re just sharing our experiences today.

2.  Shop Talk: Type 1 [13:08]

Diane Sanfilippo: Indeed. So do you want to start and kick off by going over just some basics about each type? And then maybe what we’ll do is give folks just a couple of notes on what to look for or each type in the workplace, a little bit of maybe pro and con, a little bit of; it’s not pro and con in terms of {laughs} good or bad. It’s just; upsides and pitfalls, perhaps?

Cassy Joy: Yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: And we’ve worked with most of these types across the board in some way. And it’s just really helpful. And to your point, Cassy, as a leader, it’s most important for you to continue to work on getting to the healthiest place that you can for yourself so that when you show up for others in your close organization, or as she said, speaking outwardly. You have to be able to be self-critical and analytical of yourself in order to be a leader and be an entrepreneur. You cannot bury your head in the sand about your weaknesses, and your personality. You just can’t bury your head in the sand about it and pretend it’s not there, because that will hold back your growth. Your growth is dependent on you working to become the best version of yourself. It’s not about being more like another type, or any of that. It’s about being the best version of yourself and showing up that way.  

So, let’s kick off. I think Cassy will give us the overview of the first handful of types. Because her type falls within that range. And then I’ll do the second half of our types. But we’ll just ping-pong a little bit on notes about each one. So why don’t you kick us off with the Reformer.

Cassy Joy: Ok, perfect. Number 1; and these are all, all these notes that we’re pulling in and reading are from the EnneagramInstitute.com. That website that Diane referenced at the beginning. So, just know that these are their words, not ours. But it’s a really good, succinct summary.

The Reformer, type 1, they are known as the rational, idealistic type. They are principled, purposeful, self-controlled, and they tend to be very perfectionistic. Their basic fear is of being corrupt or evil and defective. And their basic desire is to be good, to have integrity, and to be balanced. And, we’ve got a lot of ones.

Diane Sanfilippo: Side note; both of our husbands are type 1s.

Cassy Joy: {laughs} Yes. They are. We’ve joked, because they also have the same four tendency, which will be another test that we’ll cover in a future episode; they’re both Upholders. And it’s just so interesting, not only is Austin a 1, my husband; Scott, Diane’s husband, is a 1, as well. Amber, who is our managing editor here at Fed and Fit is also a 1; I talk about her a lot.

In the workplace, 1s tend to be; they’re wonderful people to work with. They’re wonderful people to be married to. I have found that the 1s in my life are extremely trustworthy and are very good at making things look good. They’re very similar to 3s; there are a lot of 1s and 3s that I think get confused, if they’re one or the other. Because they’re both very ambitious. We’ll cover what a 3 is in a second. They’re both very ambitious and can be very detail oriented and very driven.

A 1 tends to want to always do things well and do things right. It makes them very easy to work with, especially in a visionary stage of a business. Especially this desire to reform and make things even better and better, and I find that to be a huge advantage.

Something I’ve learned in working with 1s in the workplace, and just in living in life in general, is to be very careful of how criticism is delivered. Because although it may come from a really good, helpful, heartful place, it’s heard like; the catchphrase for a 1 is; no on is being harder on a 1 than a 1 is being on themselves. So it’s good to always keep in mind; if you have a 1 that you work very closely with, that delivering really tough criticism, you don’t have to hard-drill things down. I think if you just make them aware of something that might have been a mistake; they, A) probably already know it, and B) they already feel terrible about it. So the thing to do is to help work on constructive; how do we solve this together? And I’ve found, not make them feel like the bad guy. Is that fair?

Diane Sanfilippo: Very fair. The mistake is independent of them as a person.

Cassy Joy: Yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: And it’s something that; this is a great person to say; “I have totally done this, too.” Or something along those lines, so they don’t feel like they are bad. Because what they most want to hear is, you are good. Which is so funny, because I think on Scott and my first date, literally the words came out of my mouth; “You’re so good.” He’s such a good person, and we had not talked about the Enneagram yet at that point, and how funny that those words came out of my mouth? {laughs} And in hindsight, I remember saying that. But it’s so funny. See, I knew I hooked him right on that first date, by telling him what he really needed to hear.

Cassy Joy: I love that!

Diane Sanfilippo: But yes, I have definitely found that a misperception I’ve had about 1s is that because they’re perfectionistic, that they have it all together all the time, and everything will always be neat and orderly. And they won’t be anxious. But they definitely tend to have some anxieties, or nervousness around keeping things perfect, or doing it right, or making things neat, or whatever it is. So it’s not this just; it’s a calm person who always has it together and does everything perfectly. It’s not that. It’s a little bit of an anxious; I want to do it perfectly. I don’t want to make mistakes.

I can think about 1s I know; this is not just my husband. I have had other 1s on my team before, on team Balanced Bites, and worked very closely with them. And still work very closely with them, in a lot of different ways. And also, they’re the fixers. They want to fix things. Innately, they want to fix things. And how funny; Scott named his business Full Body Fix. I was like; honey.

Cassy Joy: Yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: Oh. Em. Gee. You know? Could you have picked a more perfect name. So I think that’s a good amount about 1s. And one additional note is; if you are a 1, it’s important; and this applies to a lot of types, but it’s important to remember that when people do share feedback with you, the whole four agreements thing; {laughs} another framework. But not to take it personally. I think part of the growth of a 1 is to not constantly let feedback and criticism land as a personal attack. Because not everyone around you is aware of this. Not everyone around you knows that you’re a 1. Not everyone around you knows how to speak well to a 1. And it’s your growth to work on not being this really sensitive to criticism person. That is part of the growth. So you can take that feedback and just take it for what it is. Does that make sense?

Cassy Joy: Yes. Take it for what it is, and then also part of the growth is letting things be imperfect, and that be ok.

3.  Shop Talk: Type 2 [20:42]

Diane Sanfilippo: Mm. Yes. Ok. Let’s talk about the Helper, type 2.

Cassy Joy: Ok, the Helper. Number 2. So the Helper is the caring, interpersonal type. They are a demonstrative, generous, people-pleasing, and possessive. Their basic fear is of being unwanted and unworthy of being loved. And their basic desire is to feel loved.

In the workplace, I have found that when it comes to the 2s in my life, when giving feedback to a 2, it’s really important to use this, what they call the sandwich method. Begin with the ending of what you want to say, and with an affirmation. It helps them feel a little bit less defensive. I think 1s sometimes; man, what is it they said, once upon a time I heard that Mary Kay is a 2 organization. It’s a bunch of people that want to get around and really help folks around them. The hostess with the mostest, if I’m thinking about Mary Kay parties that I went to when I was a kid. And I think those folks tend to flock to large organizations.

I have found the 2s in my life are the ones that want to celebrate the birthdays. It’s really important for them to have a warm reception, experience, and then just connecting with other folks is very important. I’ve also found that 2s have an element of pride that every Enneagram number has what some frameworks and references will call as their basic sin. So pride is that for the number 2. And so they feel this, when they’re not necessarily in a healthy pattern, they might feel that they’re taking a lot of pride in their work and the people around them and their relationships. And that can rear its head in all kinds of different ways.

But I have found that when I’m working with a 2, it’s really important to be sensitive to the fact that they are there for the right reasons. They genuinely want to feel loved. They genuinely want to be helpful. And to affirm that, deliver direct results. They can also be very powerful people in the workplace. But just make sure that I understand that the human connection is what’s most important there.

Diane Sanfilippo: So interesting. I have a woman in my life, when it comes to work, who, I don’t know if we’ve landed on whether or not she’s a 2 or a 9. But the first words out of her mouth are always; how can I help you? And I’m like; I don’t know another 2. That could be more 2, than someone’s first words are always, “How can I help you?” {laughs} I mean, literally. That’s what she says when we; hi, how are you, how can I help you.

Cassy Joy: Mm-hmm.

Diane Sanfilippo: And I’m like; I’m pretty sure you’re a 2. But it’s not always that outward presentation, right? We have to always look at that inner motivation. But a pitfall of the 2 who is the Helper, the caring, etc., is people pleasing, and also a bit of this martyr situation. So someone who is like; well, I give, and give, and give.

Cassy Joy: Mm-hmm.

Diane Sanfilippo: We’ve all heard that before. We’ve all had that moment, right? Where we’ve given a lot. But a 2 in an unhealthy place is basically giving with strings attached. And the strings are; you have to love me back. You have to tell me this. So I think there are a lot of people; and I’ve talked about people pleasing before in a Diane direct post over on Instagram. But people pleasing is often very dishonest. Because you’re doing things for the wrong reason when it’s not altruistic. When it is not about just; I’m helping to be helpful. It’s; I’m helping so that you’ll love me.

And this is sort of a classic thing that Oprah has talked about; where she had her moment where she decided; I need to say no to some things. So this is not a, how to type yourself. But if you are someone who really struggles with saying no, there’s a good chance that this is your type. I have never struggled with saying no, so I don’t think every person or every type struggles with it as much as perhaps a 2. And often the 2; again, there are other types who will say yes and not mean it. And again, it’s not just about Enneagram at this point. But this is going to be; people-pleasing is in the description. So that’s just something to keep in mind. I think it obviously, a type 8, that’s my type. We’ll get to in a little bit. But at my best, I look more like a 2; which is very generous, very caring, demonstrative, etc. So I think that’s a really interesting thing to note, is that these are wonderful, warm, caring people. Very generous, and very giving. So I think those are all important things to recognize.

And while other types and personality tests and all of these frameworks again are not always aligned; like we were talking about maybe our type 1s being certain tendencies. I do think when it comes to the Helper, it’s very likely that words of affirmation are a big part of what will go far with them. I think that’s true of a type 1, as well. Words of affirmation, because the negative words can be so painful just by default, that words of affirmation on the flip side are extremely important for them to hear that they are loved. Or that they are valued, etc.

And if words of affirmations are not their love language for a 2, I think it’s very, very, very critical to know what their love language is. So if you don’t know about the five love languages, you can Google that. Learn more about it. But knowing that their basic desire is to feel loved; if they’re not receiving that, and in the workplace, we call it languages of appreciation. So it’s not necessarily going to be a love language at work. So that’s my overview of the 2.

4.  Shop Talk: Type 3 [27:11]

Cassy Joy: That’s great. Ok, type 3 is the Achiever. So the Achiever; these are success oriented, pragmatic folks. They tend to be very adaptive, excelling, driven. Ha! That’s the name of our podcast! I’m a 3. And image conscious. Their basic fear is of being worthless, and their basic desire to feel valuable and worthwhile.

So, like I said, I am a 3. And there have been times when I have volleyed back and forth, wondering if I was actually a 1. Because I can be very persnickety and very perfectionistic. And detail oriented. But at the end of the day, if you’re torn between a couple of types. At the end of the day, my basic fear and basic desires line up more here than they do with a 1.

Diane Sanfilippo: I thought you were going to say; at the end of the day, I asked my friend Diane. {laughs} I’m just kidding!

Cassy Joy: {laughing} I told Diane; I don’t know, this was a couple of weeks ago. I sent you a note and I was like; I took another Enneagram test, and it said I was a 3. {laughs} And she was like, no kidding. {laughing}

Anyway. I took Ian Morgan Cron’s test. Which we’ll talk about in a little bit. But in the workplace, when you’re working with a 3; whether you are a 3 or you have a 3 that you work with. These can be very powerful people. These are folks that tend to; they don’t feel busy, necessarily. They tend to not feel busy. They like doing a lot of things, and they can squeeze a lot of tasks into a little amount of time that seems to be a commonality amongst the 3s that I’ve learned from and studied. They like goals. If they’re in a large organization, the latter is something that’s very attractive to them. Climbing the corporate ladder, they really like to achieve things. It’s not always about money or anything like that. They just like to win the thing.

When working with a 3, it’s very important; and if you are a 3 I think it’s very important to be able to set these expectations with your teams. But I encourage you to be very direct with a 3. I think that’s something that’s very important to them. Don’t interrupt them when they’re working. Because 3s work very intensely, they can get a lot done in a little bit amount of time. The reason they’re able to do that is they focus very, very easily. So my poor family, when they interrupt me if I’m doing something, I have to go close myself off, and that is just an instant frustration trigger for me. Because if I have dedicated time to do something, it’s hard for me to transition.

Diane Sanfilippo: “Can’t you see I’m busy?”

Cassy Joy: {laughs} Exactly. I want to put an “On Air” blinky light up above my desk. You need to give a 3 very specific examples. They really like to improve themselves, because they are achievers and they are very dynamic. They can be very nimble, and they want to do better at things. But they don’t do well with arbitrary terms. They do very, very well with specific examples. I need more of X. And they will probably blow your socks off and exceed your expectations if you give them an example.

And 3s I can speak specifically for myself, and the 3s that I know, and I’ve been studying for camaraderie, we tend to go through these periods of everyone’s fired. And I say that lightly; it’s not like I want to fire everybody on my team. But just the; it’s this visionary, let’s burn the place down, kind of tendency. Donald Miller talked about this recently; he’s also a 3 and talked about it on a podcast. And I was like; yes, that is what I do! And it’s important to balance that behavior and that reaction out on a team with somebody ho is much more steadfast and is not going to, let’s burn everything down.

So let’s say if something is not working or is not meeting expectation, a 3 values efficiency and high moving things that are really working well. But it doesn’t mean that something that is going at a slower pace is necessarily wrong. But I would find that very frustrating, and I would say; ok, let’s burn it down and start over. And so it’s good to balance that tendency out with somebody who can just be a little bit more; I don’t know, what’s the word, just even and patient through the ups and downs of success.

Diane Sanfilippo: Do you think that a pitfall of a 3 is a tendency to think; why can’t people be more like me?

Cassy Joy: Yeah, definitely. Well, I suffer from that. I don’t know if that’s across the board. But it’s definitely; it’s not across the board? {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: I’m so glad that my team is not like me. I think I would be impossible to work with in a full team. I am not a team player. Generally.

Cassy Joy: That’s interesting. I definitely want…I do suffer from that. That’s actually been a really big piece of my own growth journey over the years. And it’s something that I talk to Austin about a lot. In finding grace for other folks, and recognizing their strength for where they are at, and their own strengths and their own weaknesses, and getting outside of my own head. Because it’s super egotistical to think; why are you not measuring up to my expectations? And what I’m doing is I am just projecting the incredibly high expectations I have of myself onto those around me.

And it makes for challenging work relationships. It makes for challenging friendships. Because the bar is very high, if you don’t have that self-awareness. Now, if you do have that self-awareness, and you feel like somebody is letting you down, you might look at it and say; are they letting me down? Are they genuinely falling short of something that’s morally important or by whatever standards you have, or is it just a reflection of your own perception of what they should or shouldn’t be?

Diane Sanfilippo: You know what I think is interesting on that, too? For any type, because I know this applies to me as well. And it’s something that I have come to a good place with. If you’re somebody; because I don’t think having high standards or high expectations is necessarily only exclusive to a 1, a 3, and an 8. Though I think we tend to have that the most. People can tell us if they don’t agree with that.

For whatever reason, I also think that we are not as hard on ourselves. We’ve very forgiving; at least I am. And I think you are. You have really high expectations and goals, but you are pretty forgiving of yourself if you don’t reach the thing. Because you’re like; well, I know I did the best I could, and I will just keep doing better next time. But for some reason, when someone else let’s us down on an expectation, it’s like; we can’t be as forgiving of them until we get to the place where we are. Which, that’s a place I’ve definitely gotten to now, that 5 years ago I don’t think I was there. 5 years ago, I would feel really disappointed. And I’m like; well, if I can be forgiving of myself, how I can expect people to reach these goals all the time. That’s ridiculous. For me, that was where I got to.

Well, ok.

Cassy Joy: That’s an interesting observation.

5.  Shop Talk: Type 4 [34:35]

Diane Sanfilippo: We have so much more to cover. Ok, so, type 4.

Cassy Joy: The Individualist. So, type 4 is the sensitive, withdrawn type. They tend to be expressive; they can be dramatic; they can be self-absorbed and temperamental. If you’re a type 4 listening to this, I don’t want you to cringe. For what it’s worth, most people, when they listen to their personality types, at least with me, I felt very exposed and I would cringe every time someone would read something about a 3.

The basic fear for a 4 is that they have no identity or personal significance. And the basic desire is to find themselves and their significant, and to create an identity. So in the workplace, I do have a 4 on my team. She’s not quite sure; she might be a couple of other numbers, but pretty sure she’s a 4. Her name is Lauren, and she’s just lovely. And something that I’ve found in working with Lauren; I feel like there’s a misconception about 4s in the workplace that sometimes maybe they don’t have a good work ethic, or they tend to be flighty. And I would say that couldn’t be furthest from the truth when it comes to, at least the 4 I work with very closely. She’s’ very committed to her work, and works very diligently, and very hard. She also happens to be an Upholder, from the Gretchen Rubin framework, four tendencies.

And it’s just interesting, 4s I have found that when working with them, either as a friend or in the workplace, it’s very important not to rush them through things they are feeling and talking about. Because I think what’s important to a 4 is the experience and sharing their thoughts and emotions. And as a friend, it’s important to sit with your friends. It’s important to sit with the people with you and let them share their hearts. And I think this is especially true for a 4. And if you rush them through a feeling, or try to quell, or try to solve emotional conflicts that they’re going through, they might lose trust there in that relationship. So I have found that those relationships I have really flourish when I just sit and listen and be there. Essentially, it’s how to be a good friend 101. Right? How to just sit and listen and not solve someone’s problems for them. And I think that’s especially true with a 4. To just really be there with them.

Something I heard about a 4 once that stuck with me is, Ian Morgan Cron, who is one of the Enneagram leaders out there that I like following the most and learning from. He is a 4, and something that he said; he’s a highly achieving person, so again, that misconception that 4s are not high achievers is, again, I think misplaced. But he has said; a 4 will feel more in a minute than a lot of other people will in a week. So kind of keeping that in mind when working with a 4. Because as a 3, I can kind of be a bully with emotions. 3s sometimes have to have a little emotion compass; we feel things very, very deeply; like 2s, 3s, and 4s, feel things very deeply. But a 3 has an impossible time sometimes naming our emotions. We just feel them, and we move past them. And a 4 is the opposite.

And something Ian said once upon a time was that; if you’ve ever walked into a Whole Foods, and you thought; “I don’t know what it is about those apples, the way those apples are arranged, but it just makes me feel good.” It’s just pretty, and soothing, the way the produce is at the Whole Foods. He said a 4 designed that experience for you. Because they speak in human emotion. They know how to bring those things to life. And I’ve always found that fascinating.

Diane Sanfilippo: That is really interesting. So, I think that my sister is a 4. I don’t know if she’s taken the test. But everything you’re saying would really describe her, and that’s been a very interesting thing for me to, even move from an assumption of, if this is her type, how I can interact with her better. And she does not live nearby, she lives in London. So it is so important to allow, as you said, to allow them to have the space to share information about how they’re feeling. And I think the point of that is to say it is heard and you are seen, and you are not alone.

And I think it’s a delicate balance, because the beauty of a 4 is this Individualist. Right? Somebody who is unique and has something really intangibly special about them that is sort of that emotional side that a lot of people don’t tune into as much. And it’s awesome. And it’s extremely valuable. But because our society puts this huge emphasis on doing and achieving, I think sometimes the 4 can feel like that emotional part or that artistic part or expressive part is not as valuable. And they don’t see where they fit into the world. So one thing I definitely see is; if we can nurture that element and help the 4 to see how and why this part of them and what they contribute is so valuable, that will put things into a much better perspective.

And then interestingly, knowing the wings, knowing that 3 is a wing to a 4. That can pretty easily quell the non-driven aspect. I mean, I actually see both wings very easily in my sister; she’s extremely driven, extremely motivated, also we’ll get to 5; extremely analytical and intense and cerebral. So it’s very interesting, and we can value all of those parts of them. I do think it requires us to be aware of it so that we can use words that support the way that a 4 moves through the world.

6.  Shop Talk: Type 5 [40:49]

Cassy Joy: I love that. Next up is the Investigator. This is type 5. So like Diane referenced, this is the intense, cerebral type. They are very perceptive. They can be very innovative. They can be secretive. And they can be isolated. Their basic fear is of being useless, helpless, or incapable. Their basic desire is to be capable and competent. And so the Investigators in our lives, I’ve found, these are the people who just; they love data, they love research, they really love deep diving on any kind of an issue or something that they find fascinating.

I have a 5 socially that I’m very close friends with, and his name is Joe. And every time I chat with Joe about a topic maybe that I know, let’s say, 5% about, the next time I see him, he’s at 75% knowledge of all that is out there. And they’re just so; they’re these human walking encyclopedias.

Something that I’ve found with a 5 in the workplace, I tend to be; I’m a very huggy person. For example, if I see you in the wild, in public, and we strike up a conversation, there’s a really good chance I’m going to hug you without you asking me to. And it’s just a reflex of mine, and I have to keep it; the 5s are really good for me, very healthy for me to remember that not everybody really enjoys that kind of forced closeness. So I try to keep that in mind, especially if I know that they are this Enneagram number. The 5s in my life, I tend to sit back. And say; hi, how are you today? Give them some space. And if they walk up and give me a hug, it’s like being chosen. I don’t know, it just feels even more special, because that physical closeness isn’t something necessarily that’s automatic. It’s something that’s shared very selectively.

So, I would say if you tend to expect a 5; let’s say if you’re somebody who it’s really important for you to deep dive emotionally in conversations with folks, if you have a 5 in your life, I think the way to really help a 5 bloom in that regard is not to ask them very personal, prying questions. It is just to be there, and they will open up to you when they’re ready. I think is what I’ve really found.

And I’ve also found that in the workplace, it’s also, on the same coin and on the same note, not forcing them to engage in group activities, and respecting them for where they’re at and knowing that they’re contributing significantly in their own way from their own distance.

Diane Sanfilippo: Interestingly, a type 8 in stress goes to a type 5. So I’m a little bit aware of how some of the negatives of the type 5 can emerge in this intense, perceptive, perhaps even isolated. It’s almost what I would consider hypercritical, and not in the best way. So it’s interesting for me to see both the super positive Investigator who is reliable with a ton of information and like you said, data, and they’re going to back things up. Here’s what I’ve seen, here’s what I’ve researched, etc., etc. They will go down the rabbit holes of research. But also can really be nitpicking uncertain things, and it can feel personal to some people when it’s not. And that’s a really interesting thing to note, as well.

So I would love to hear from more 5s. Because I do feel like I don’t hear from as many 5s in this space of entrepreneurship. And I’m curious how many people identify as a 5 who are starting and growing a business. I would love to hear more from them.

7.  Shop Talk: Type 6 [44:46]

Diane Sanfilippo: Ok, so we’re going to dive into the second half of the Enneagram, although there’s not a clean split in half. But we decided to divide these up because Cassy falls into that first half and I fall into the second half. So type 6 is known as the Loyalist. They’re committed, security-oriented types. They’re engaging, responsible, anxious, and suspicious. They have a basic fear of being without support and guidance, and they’re basic desire is to have security and support.

And we were chatting before the show that my entire life, type 6s have been very classically my “best friend.” I don’t know that I have a best friend, these days. I would say I have very close friends, Cassy being one of them. People who I would say are my go-to’s and my confidants and all of that; my kitchen cabinet, ala Brene Brown. But looking back at my childhood, my childhood best friend was a 6; is a 6. And she was my friend all the way through high school. In college it was a type 6. Liz Wolfe, who we did the Balanced Bites podcast for 8 years, has been one of my closest friends. Not physically in the same place close, where we go out and do things. But we will talk and deep dive; a 6.

So what’s interesting is that 6s tend to really enjoy the stability and the anchor and the decisiveness of an 8. Because they are looking for support and guidance and security. And an 8 is exactly that. An 8 is someone who is just very steadfast. Always there. Will give you that support. Will help you make the decision. But I do find that a 6 will also help you make a decision from a well-balanced point of view. They’re constantly considering pros and cons. They’re sometimes known as the doomsdayers. But I don’t think that always describes all of them. They tend to want to know what all of the options are. They might research what is the best XYZ item. That can also kind of fall under the type 5, or a 6 with a 5 wing. Where it’s like; they have tried all of these, so here’s the best one. Liz is the perfect example of that, because she is like, here it is. This is the best humidifier. I can tell you because I have got a humidifier graveyard in my house. I bought six of them, and this one is the best. You know?

Cassy Joy: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: And that’s one thing about the way they are; they’re suspicious. They’re like; I don’t know if I trust this one. I’m going to check out that one and see which one is better. But I will say, also, in the workplace, really good at handling tasks, prioritizing things. Being a bit of an anchor; even though the 8 tends to be an anchor for the 6, the 6s are very reliable because they’re committed and security oriented; and responsible. You can really count on a 6 to get the job done. And that’s not that you can’t count on others. But, that’s what I find of a 6; very reliable. Though they can have this tendency to be anxious, through growth they are very calm, and a calming presence. And I think they are; I mean, the Loyalist. I don’t know how else to exude that I find them to be an anchor for a lot of people. I think you’ve said that you feel the same way about having 6s in your life and in your business. They feel kind of grounding and balanced?

Cassy Joy: Yes. They’re very grounding, very balanced. I; as a 3, goes to a 6 in growth. So a part of the reason why I think I’ve always interpreted my appeal to 6s and my draw to them is because they represent the best in me. Right? So a 3 goes to a 6 in growth, and we go to a 9 when we’re stressed. But I do; I find them very grounding. I find them very aspirational. Like I said, they show the best parts of me. And I really like that.

I have found that 6s are great editors. And funny enough; the person who we just hired to round out our team at the end of the year is a 6 and she’s going to be our junior copy editor. But Liz, for example. Back in the day, Liz helped me write some things when it was new; like safer skincare articles. And it was uncharted territory for me as a writer, because I’d only ever written about nutrition or food. And she was arguably the pioneer from the food world, talking about safer skin care. And I remember; I said, I don’t really know how to tackle this. And so I would send her what I’d written, and it was a complete document. But what Liz excelled at was taking what I had written and improving upon it. And I have found that that is just such a unique skillset. And she’s told me before, in the past, that she excels at editing, and it’s hard for her to get started when staring at a blank page. And I’m kind of the opposite. I’m a little bit better at a blank page than I am at editing.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. Same. I can’t read something that’s already done.

Cassy Joy: Yeah. And it’s just such a powerful skillset.

Diane Sanfilippo: I can edit with visuals, but not with words.

Cassy Joy: Yes.

Diane Sanfilippo: So, here’s a fun fact. There are two type 6s out of 5 women that work with me on team Balanced Bites. So I’m a type 8, and I have two type 6s. And I find them to be; for my personality type, very easy to work with. And watching the growth of a type 6 who may have been a bit more anxious at one point and has become way more calm and confident through development. And I think that’s just a very; I don’t know. It’s a wonderful process to see, knowing that giving the 6 work that can be accomplished with a lot of support along the way. And a check in and a touch point. You don’t want to give a 6 a project and never check back in. You might do that with a 3, but you wouldn’t do that with a 6. You really need to have those moments of support and guidance and affirmation along the way.

So one thing I want to note is that as an entrepreneur, I think it’s relevant as a 6 to either have a partner, or to know that you have a close friend somewhere who, if you are the leader, the entrepreneur, that you do have a close friend who you can turn to consistently for that support and guidance. Or the way that you build the team around you internally is very supportive and grounding for you as a 6. Because if I look at the 6s in my life, they excel when they know they have support. When they know that someone is in their corner and has got their back. And if they feel that the ground is shaky, if in a relationship, the relationship doesn’t feel stable or the other person’s job doesn’t feel stable for some reason, that that can bring a lot more anxiety to them in their life.

8.  Shop Talk: Type 7 [52:06]

Diane Sanfilippo: Ok. So type 7, the Enthusiast. The busy, fun loving type. Spontaneous, versatile, distractible, and scattered. Basic fear of being deprived and in pain. Basic desire to be satisfied and content to have their needs fulfilled.

So, I don’t have 7s in my core team of Balanced Bites. I have a very close friend who is a 7. You are not supposed to type other people; leave it to a 3 and an 8 to type other people.

Cassy Joy: {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: Bossy AF. But I do think there is an emotional intelligence, when you’re very close with someone and you know their story, sometimes you can look at what they’re like and identify something. But don’t use it against somebody in that way.

So I believe my friend, Tony Kasandrinos, is an Enthusiast. I know that Emily Schromm has identified herself as a type 7 Enthusiast. And if you follow Emily Schromm on social media, she is a quintessential Enthusiast. She has got a ton of projects going on. She loves it. She’s very busy. If she were not to be able to handle all of those things, you might consider it scattered, but it’s versatile to me. Somebody who can adapt to different situations, who is very typically charismatic, or even if not in an exuberant way. Like, I always think of Tigger, from Winnie the Pooh. Tigger is the Enthusiast.

But they tend to be able to get along with a lot of people. They tend to have this; I can get into any group. I’m at a party and can talk to whoever it is at the time. So that is my friend Tony. I mean, literally, there’s; unless you {laughs} as far as I know, unless you have wronged that man in some crazy way, there is nobody he’s not friends with. That’s the kind of very warm, and all that.

A pitfall can be that they get really excited about new projects, and different projects in the workplace, and they can distractible as the typing goes. So I think they do best when they do have some grounding, and somebody who can help them make decisions on which way to go, or which way to focus. But you don’t want to limit them. You don’t want to make them only chose one thing. I mean, a multi-passionate entrepreneur, if you’re a type 7, do not feel like you need to pick your lane and stay there. Because you’re not going to feel fulfilled. You will feel deprived. And like there is something else you need to be doing. And I have a 7 wing most of the time, so having my hands in a lot of pots is just natural for me. If I were doing only one thing, I think I would feel just too silent in a way. There’s not enough expression of whatever is going on inside.

So, you want to make sure that as a 7 you do have enough to do. That you’re not left feeling bored, or that there’s not a project to work on. So, if you are a 7, or someone in your organization is a 7, I think this is a perfect person to have a lot of pots on the stove. And they have something they can bounce to as a different project at any given time, if whatever they’re working on at the moment isn’t giving them that really exciting; I’m into this and I’m working hard on it type of thing. Do you have 7s in your organization?

Cassy Joy: In my Beautycounter team, I have a couple. And then I have a couple of friends who are 7s. And I’ve heard from them; one in particular told me she is such a quintessential 7, she’s warm, bubbly, she loves new ideas and multiple projects and expressing herself through all these different avenues. And one thing she said, though, that can be a frustration for her is when she does go to a party, and the Enneagram is known, and they’re like; hey, you’re the life of the party. Go make it more lively! Right. And this pressure to uplift a room; it doesn’t necessarily mean that, because they are the Enthusiast, doesn’t mean they want to necessarily go woo a crowd of 50 people, if it’s not what they’re feeling right then and there.

So I think that’s an interesting thing to think about; when it comes to 7s, I have found 7s are very powerful. Actually, every time I’ve taken an Enneagram test, I’m a 3. Slam dunk. But when I’ve taken the Enneagram test, I’ve actually had 7 show up as one of my very first ones. I’ve had 8 show up as one of my top scoring, above a 3 even. And I think it’s really interesting that what you just said, Diane; if you don’t have your hands in multiple pots, you may not feel fulfilled. And that is ok. I think 7s are told more often than not that they should focus and slow down. And sometimes that kind of advice comes from folks who maybe they’re speaking more for themselves than they are for you. Because what you’re able to do and your capacity for all the different projects is just different. So I would recognize that strength. You might feel a little bit less alone and in the wrong if you do realize that this is an actual skillset that you have.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. I love that you said that about lighting up the room, or something to that effect. Because I would never pin that on someone like Tony. He’s not going to come in and start the party. But very calmly charismatic, and also excitable. He will call me from a long drive and be like; I have these three business ideas. Let’s talk about it. I’m like; ok.

Cassy Joy: I love it. {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: That kind of excitement and exuberance. But it’s not always this outward, swinging from the chandeliers type of person.

Cassy Joy: Yeah.

9.  Shop Talk: Type 8 [58:01]

Diane Sanfilippo: Ok. Type 8; the Challenger.

Cassy Joy: Can I say this is my favorite? Can I have a favorite type? {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Cassy Joy: It is. Go for it! Take it away, Diane! {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: Of course I can be your favorite type. Aren’t both of your parents type 8?

Cassy Joy: They are. If you want to know what a person turns into that’s raised by two 8s; you’re looking at her. {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: But your sisters are not the same type, so that’s interesting.

Cassy Joy: Kimberly is a 3, and we think Sam is a 6.

Diane Sanfilippo: Hm. So type 8, the powerful dominating type. Self-confident, decisive, willful, and confrontational. Basic fear of being harmed or controlled by others. Basic desire to protect themselves and be in control of their own life and destiny. And I would add to the basic fear, or the core fear of betrayal. I think that is the biggest issue for me. I don’t care what anyone is going to do as long as they don’t lie to me. But if they lie to me or they betray me, or they say they’re my friend and they’re really not, that is the worst, basically. But if you want to tell me ahead of time, then we’re ok. {laughs}

Anyway. How do we describe the Challenger? I almost feel like I don’t want to describe myself. But let me put this out there. People often ask me; how did you become so confident? Or, how do I make decisions? How do I do this or that? The challenge I have had for the last 5 plus years that we’ve been talking about personal development and entrepreneurship, etc., is how do I describe what feels innate to me. How do I describe how you can achieve something that I don’t work on achieving; it is innate to me? It is innate to me to inherently trust myself more than I trust other people. And that’s because of that core fear of being controlled by others.

So I work on it. I try to figure out how to explain that to other people. But this is something that is really innate to the type 8. So working with type 8s, I think most often you will either find; and I can look at myself historically in rolls where I was not the boss, and obviously now. If you’ve got a type 8 that you’re working with that’s on your team, most likely they are very independent. They’re great at taking direction, but in a way that communicates, I trust you to carry this out. I’m going to give you some guidance but I’m not going to micromanage you. I’m going to let you essentially be your own boss in this position; here’s the power that you have. And arbitrary controls, much like the type 3, are not going to fly with a type 8.

So here’s an example. When I worked in retail, and punching the clock was something that had to be done because there were people before and after me on a shift. I was fine with punching the clock. Yes, I will be there at 8:30, because someone else is waiting to be relieved, and it’s not arbitrary. It’s important. And I’m not going to disrespect my coworkers, etc. But when I started working in an office, with a manager at the time who; and I was working for the GAP. I was working in the stores, and then I was working at corporate. And he would seethe when I would hit my desk at 8:35. And I was like; buddy. You need to calm down. There’s not a meeting that I’m late for. Nobody is waiting to punch out. And he came from the store environment too, so I think he had that. I don’t’ know what his type was, we were not doing this. This was back in the year 2000, if anybody watched Conan O’Brien.

Cassy Joy: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: So anyway. {laughs} This was back in 2000. I was working at a corporate job. But having that person trying to control me in that way; it was the worst situation for me to be in as an employee. Fast forward to working for my former boss, Dan, at what is now called Kick charge Creative. And I don’t know what type he is; he might also be a type 8. But he was a type of boss who, I would be able to listen to what he was doing. We sat 6 feet away from each other. And I would learn through that example, and he just kind of let me be in charge of whatever h said I was in charge of. And let me shine in that environment. I think that’s important. I think a lot of people will find that an 8 on your team is awesome, and then they’re going to leave. They tend to be their own boss. I can think of the 8s that are close to me. My friend Mary Shanuda, Kendra Holly, my friend Sarah Servald. All entrepreneurial. And that’s not to say that all 8s are. But I do think that we have a natural tendency to be entrepreneurs because we’re decisive. Because we’re willful. Because we’re naturally self confident and powerful.

Cassy Joy: Or to seek opportunities that allow that autonomy.

Diane Sanfilippo: Mm-hmm.

Cassy Joy: Like; my mom and dad have this AE firm. I did an Enneagram chat with their management team. There are about 12 people in the room. And I think I told you this. Out of 12 people, there were 8 8s in the room.

Diane Sanfilippo: Wow. Well, if an 8 can be led, it will be by other 8s.

Cassy Joy: Exactly. And it’s because they respect; my parents are exactly what you just described, the opposite of micromanagers. And they really want to empower people to work autonomously. And it’s hard for folks who then necessarily want to be managed very closely. It’s a really hard matchup. But that’s been really interesting. And I’ve also found that the reason I really enjoy working with 8s; they’re real diamonds on a team, if you’re somebody who values directness.

And I think that because I am standing on the outside of the forest looking in. Something I have found that is a really common misconception with 8s is that their directness is of malintent because maybe it feels too direct or there isn’t enough positive affirmation thrown into the mix. I have found that when an 8 is really direct with you, it is how they show kindness, and there’s a lot of care that goes into that. So it’s just interesting; I don’t know.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. We won’t say anything if we don’t care.

Cassy Joy: Yeah, exactly.

Diane Sanfilippo: So, you will get iced out if we don’t care to fix things. And I think one of the upsides of being an 8 and being around 8s is you always know where you stand with an 8. That’s something that my mom has always said to me. She’s like; I always know where I stand with you, Diane. Which; {laughs} it’s never anywhere bad. But she doesn’t need to wonder what’s going on. I will tell you want I want to do. I will say what I mean, and I will mean what I say.

So as a boss, to your point, I do not want to micromanage. I want to delegate, and I want you to handle it. So if you can’t handle it, I expect you to come tell me what you need, because I am busy doing other things. And the best way to show up for me, and this is also partially love language. Acts of service is my number one love language. Handle it. Just handle it. Get it done and show it to me when you’re done. And along those lines, as an 8, my development has been to continually empower my people to not feel nervous that when they make a mistake I will overly critical and move to that 5 land, where I’m coming down on them with criticism. I’m must more like; great, looks good. Good job. Because we prepare people to be able to make those decisions in an empowered way.

And I do think that working for an 8, and with an 8, can be very challenging if you are not a confident person. So the most difficult working relationships I have had have been with people who are not confident in themselves. That doesn’t mean that they might not come to work with me and become more confident over time. I think that that’s something I’m the most proud of; is watching the development of people who do work closely with me as they become more confident. Because even though an 8 is a Challenger, and is someone who is very dominating and powerful, you spend time close to that flame, and you light up, too.

And it’s something that I have taken very seriously to recognize as a powerful thing. It is very much like a flame. It’s a powerful thing that can just be there and lighting the way, or it can burn things down and light a fire. And what you kind of joked about, burning things down. I have had that inclination as well over the years. And one thing I notice; I don’t know if this is consistent across types, and you can tell me. But I have noticed this happen for me, now that I can step outside of it and look back. Sort of just an aura, or it’s like; I’m looking around like, why are they waiting for me to say something. If I’m in a room where there is a known element of power that I hold, for some reason. People know me or whatever it is. That I’m being looked at they’re waiting for me to say something the whole time. And I don’t know if other types feel that way. But it feels like a huge responsibility to wield that power with warmth and compassion and not in a negative way.

So one more thing I want to say about it is I recently watched the Bikram documentary; did you watch it?

Cassy Joy: I watched it.

Diane Sanfilippo: That is an 8 at it’s worst. So if you have seen the documentary or you haven’t, that is somebody who identifies; wow, I have a lot of power over these people and now I’m going to abuse it. That is your guru will very commonly be an 8 gone bad. And I’m very much like; no, no. I am not going to tell you what you need to do. Because I want to empower people. I don’t want to be an enabler.

10.  Shop Talk: Type 9 [1:08:25]

Diane Sanfilippo: Ok. That’s a lot on the 8. We can get into it more another time. So type 9, to round out all of these types is the Peacemaker. And for reference, I have three type 9s on team Balanced Bites. So we have two Loyalists, and three Peacemakers. Which is so fascinating to me, but not shocking. Because I love being surrounded by these very grounding, calm types. So the Peacemaker, type 9, easy going, self-effacing type. Receptive, reassuring, agreeable, and complacent. Basic fear of loss and separation. Basic desire to have inner stability and peace of mind. So you’ll note, this desire for stability that comes through both the 6 and the 9 makes them a very natural match for an 8, who is the leader. Which I think is very interesting.

What I have found of 9s; so we mentioned briefly Gretchen Rubin’s four tendencies. We don’t need to get into it now, but I think most folks can understand what this means. I have actually found that 9s have some strong Rebel tendencies. So people think of 9s as wanting to just wear sweats, and drink tea, and be on the couch, and not do work. And I don’t find that that’s the case. I find that they need to be the one who is orchestrating the idea and coming up with the plan. Because then they’re really going to make it happen. so they tend to be agreeable and receptive to ideas; but in order to ignite them to take action, I don’t believe that just telling them what to do and letting them agree is the best path forward. What I have seen is saying; what do you think? And then giving them time to think. Because the Peacemaker is not going to be quick with their opinions the way a 3 or an 8 might be, for example. They really want a little bit more time. They want that moment to make the decision and to be able to say something. They don’t want to be confrontational, so if they’re not sure how their opinion or their idea will be received, they do want to give it a little more time. And they’re not going to just throw arguments out there for the sake of it. But they will speak their mind when they need to speak their mind. And when they’re given the platform to do so.

So as an 8, as someone who, on the downside, I can say; if I’m unaware, I can easily be a steamroller. That’s just the example that I give. Knowing that I have three 9s on team Balanced Bites, one thing that I consistently work on is either letting them know ahead of time what the questions are that I’m going to be asking them, so they can be very prepared. Or asking a question, putting it out there, and not calling on them first to answer it. Giving them a moment to answer. Maybe letting other people answer first, so they can kind of see how their response fits into what we’re talking about. All of that has been really helpful. And I do think, as well, the support and the stability of saying; good job, you’ve got this. That was really helpful, and that was a good idea. Those types of words do seem to go very far with the Peacemaker.

And I think depending on your type, when you’re in a working relationship, instead of looking at the Peacemaker as somebody who isn’t driven or hardworking. I think it’s valuable to look at them as someone who is consistent, grounding, and reliable.

Cassy Joy: I think that’s fair. I will say that I found too that a 9; so a 9 goes to a 3 when they’re in growth. So when a 9 is in a really good, healthy spot, and you as the leader. If you’re leading a group of 9s. If you as the leader are doing exactly what Diane has said and giving them a moment to prepare their thoughts and then prompting them to actually voice their opinion. Because their inclination might be to just go with the flow. But if you really challenge them directly after respecting the time that they might need to formulate their thoughts, they can be very high achievers.

I have a number of 9s on my Beautycounter team. It’s actually far and wide the most prominent number on my Beautycounter team. These are very high achieving people. So it’s just interesting. When you offer a little bit of autonomy I have found, with lots of affirmation, and you give them the opportunity to do business and do things the way that they want to do it with that Rebel tendency, like you just mentioned, I have found that they are even more achieving than I ever would have thought possible.

The sin or the tendency of the 9 is that of the sloth, and that’s of not doing things. And if you have a 9 on your team, or you yourself are a 9, and you find yourself identifying with this; I’m so overwhelmed. So a 3 goes to a 9 in stress, right, so I know this one. The worst signs of a 9; on the rare moments when I genuinely feel overwhelmed, I have this inability to move. I stall. And then I want to sit, and I want to feel guilty; I, as a 3, feel guilty about sitting. I don’t know that a 9 necessarily feels guilty about it. But it’s really interesting.

So if you find somebody in your organization who is stalling, and they might be overwhelmed, you might just need to sit down with them and let them air their thoughts and kind of; essentially, unclog whatever it is that they need to process and work through. Maybe reduce a few things on their sheet so they can do a few things better than a lot of things not so well.

Diane Sanfilippo: I think that’s an excellent assessment. And for sure, it’s true for everyone, but breaking down a big project into small tasks. And creating clear expectations along the way is what I’m seeing as helpful, as well. That they know they can deliver because it’s not too overwhelming. So it can be accomplished, and it’s something that they then, because it feels doable, they agree to. And say; yes, I can do this. This sounds good. And they’re able to deliver.

11. Resources for more information [1:14:50]

Cassy Joy: Alrighty, to close out today’s episode, we’re going to go ahead and rattle through some tests and some books that we recommend. So when it comes to tests, Diane has already mentioned it a couple of times. But one of the best tests out there, it’s $12, it’s from the Enneagram Institute. It’s called the RHETI. It’s a great one.

Now, if you Google Enneagram tests, you’re going to find a number of free ones. You’re welcome to take those. What’s important to remember about an Enneagram test is that an Enneagram test does not tell you your number, but it can get you close. It will probably get you close to two or three of them. Unless it’s a landslide. In that case, congratulations, you don’t have to do maybe as much research. But what I encourage you to do is take a test; even if it is the RHETI. Take a test, look at your top 3, and then go read in depth the descriptors of those types. And then you choose the one that feels the most you.

Like I said; I’ve taken a lot of tests because I’m just endlessly curious about all the different results. And I’ve bubbled to the top as a 7 before. I’ve bubbled to the top as an 8. But I’m definitely a type 3. So go read the descriptors. Only you can really choose your number.

And then, actually, my favorite test lately has been; it’s more expensive than the Enneagram Institute test, but Ian Morgan Cron, who I’ve referenced a few times already, has a few tests online. He has two different levels of it; one is for the professional, and then one is for just a really good general understanding. I really liked his assessment. It was very thorough, and then the package that you are sent after it closes is just very informational.

One of my favorite things about Ian Morgan Cron’s test is he actually gives you your subtype. So if you are knee deep in the weeds of the Enneagram test, and you know a lot about it already, you might be starting to be curious about the subtype; there are three subtypes for each number. And he provides that in this test. So I learned through his test, and it makes a lot of sense, that I am an Enneagram 3 with a self-preservation subtype. So that was just really powerful for me, because I was at a point where I felt a little out of place, even in my own number. And if you feel that way, the subtype could be a little bit liberating and provide a different, but more finely tuned compass in your hand.

When it comes to books, a few of our favorites are The Road Back to You was one of my top favorites. It’s also by Ian Morgan Cron. The Wisdom of the Enneagram is a great one. And then Enneagram in Love and Work by Helen Palmer is another one of my favorites. I really like that last one because it breaks up how each type relates to another in love and work. So I found that to be very helpful, especially when I was going through the Enneagram with my husband, who is a 1, me as a 3, that was very interesting.

And then we wanted to give you a few Instagram accounts to follow. The ones that we really enjoy that we find provide the most value. The Enneagram is very popular right now. There’s a lot of information out there and a lot of sources. And some of them are very enriching, but not all of them are. So we’re going to go ahead and tell you a few of our favorite Enneagram accounts. And of course, if you’re driving or not at a place to jot this down, you can always reference the show notes over at TheDrivenPodcast.com.

But the ones that we really enjoy the most right now are Nine Types Co, Gena Comez.co, Your Enneagram Coach, Just my Ennea Type, Enneagram Ashton, Social Enneagram, What’s my Ennea Type, Enneagram and Coffee, and the last one is Enneagram Enthusiast. You don’t need to follow all of them, but if you want some good recommendations and some really fun/informational memes, those are really great accounts.

12. Tip of The Week: Take a test [1:18:42]

Cassy Joy: Tip of The Week! In this segment, we give you one tip that you can take action on this week to move your business or life forward. Ok, so our tip of the week is to take the Enneagram test! Go take it! Go deep dive! If you consider yourself a leader in your organization or in your community, I think it’s really, really important to know yourself so that you can really understand how you are showing up and how you’re being perceived in front of other people. It’s important to know your own stressors so that you can better manage those tendencies.

So, if you have not taken the Enneagram test, go take it, and then go read those descriptors and choose your type. And if you have taken it, I encourage you have the people close to you take it, as well. Whether you have a team like Diane and I do, or you have a small group of friends and you just really want to deep dive and discuss a little bit further. Because like she said at the top of this show; the Enneagram is not really important in a vacuum. It’s most important and most useful when thinking about how do you show up with other folks. How do you show up in relation to other people, and how is that really interpreted? And how can you, then, be a better partner, a better spouse, a better friend, a better boss, a better mentor, a better employee, and a better team member? How can you show up and be even better, and just honor the folks in your lives, and give them exactly what they need? And be able to better communicate where you are in your life.

So, I encourage you to go take the test, and then have the folks in your life take it as well. If you’re already through all that, then I would sit down and have a discussion about how can you utilize this framework to improve your team and really tackle 2020 with a lot of self awareness and a lot of gusto.

Diane Sanfilippo: That’s it for Driven this week. If you liked this episode, be sure to subscribe in Apple podcast, on Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Follow us on Instagram @TheDrivenPodcast. Cassy is @FedandFit and I am @DianeSanfilippo. Tune in next week for more on personality tests in the workplace. We’ll see you then.