Episode #14: The Pros & Cons of Writing a Book (Intro to Book Writing Mini-Series, Part 1)

In today’s episode, we’re bringing you the 1st of our 3-part mini series on an introduction to book writing. Today, we’re going to have an honest conversation around the pros and cons of writing a book! Then we’ll finish the show with a weekly actionable tip that will help you work through the “go/no-go” of taking on a project of this magnitude!

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Diane Sanfilippo: We think we have so much control over this process; and we can control a lot of it. We can control what we do. We can control how hard we work. How well we do the research to write the content that’s going to work for people. We cannot control which celebrities are going to get divorced the day you’re trying to promote your book. Brangelina broke up when I was in Chicago trying to be on that morning news, and I got sidelined. Brangelina! Seriously.

Cassy Joy: {laughs} That’s so true.

Welcome to Driven; a show about business, life, and wellness from two confident, curious women who are pulling back the curtain on what it’s like being an entrepreneur. Each week, join hosts Diane Sanfilippo and Cassy Joy Garcia talk about being your best, showing up for your dreams, and kicking self-doubt to the curb.

Diane is a business whisperer, best-selling author, and plant-hobbyist based in San Francisco. Cassy Joy is the founder of www.FedandFit.com, best-selling author, and casserole enthusiast. She calls San Antonio, Texas, home.

Cassy Joy: In today’s episode, we’re bringing you the first of a three-part miniseries on an introduction to book writing! Today we’re going to have a really honest conversation around the pros and cons of writing a book; something both Diane and I have done. Then we’ll finish the show with a weekly actionable tip that will help you work through the go, no-go process of taking on a project of this magnitude.


  1. What’s on my plate [2:29]
  2. Shop Talk: Writing a Book [10:55]
  3. Shop Talk: Pros of writing a book [18:53]
  4. Shop Talk: Cons of writing a book [28:16]
  5. Tip of The Week: Pros and Cons list [58:56]

Cassy Joy: Today’s show is brought to you by the Nutritional Therapy Association. The NTA trains and certifies nutritional therapy practitioners by focusing on bio-individuality and the range of dietary strategies that support wellness. The NTA emphasizes a whole-food, properly prepared, and nutrient dense diet as the key to restoring balance and enhancing the body’s innate ability to heal.

Throughout their programs, students learn a wide-range of educational tools and techniques to identify and correct nutritional imbalances and deficiencies in their clients, and to launch a successful career in holistic nutrition. The NTA produces like-minded practitioners and consultants that we endorse and consider colleagues in the health and wellness space. Registration for the February class is now open through January 31st. And seats are already filling up quickly. You can learn more, and save your seat by going to www.NutritionalTherapy.com. Don’t forget to mention our name, The Driven Podcast, on your application.

1.  What’s on my plate [2:29]

Cassy Joy: What’s on My Plate. In this segment, we talk about what’s happening in our businesses and in our lives this week. Diane; what’s going on over there in the beautiful blustering Bay area?

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughing} You know I love a good alliteration, especially when it involves multiple B’s.

Cassy Joy: {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: So, really, really pumped. We finally have 10 new Balanced Bites meals recipes that are off for development, and the first stage of that. Well, kind of the first preliminary backstage to that is I submit the recipes, just as an overview, to make sure they seem doable for the kitchens. So the chef over there will look at them and make sure it seems like yes; we can handle this before they see the details of what the ingredients are and all of that. Just kind of a high level, conceptually.

And then this stage is scaling. They’re taking recipes that I have obviously written that are for serving four to six people and scaling them up to a recipe that will make about 100 meals at a time. Which is so interesting. And then we’ll get our first round of meals probably next week. And that is always; I don’t know. It’s always really fun. We’ve gone through this process now two other rounds. And some of them come back, and on the first shot it’s like; almost perfect. And some of them are just really, really far off. It’s just a fun process and I’m excited to get those meals back so we can start cycling those into the menu.

But it will still be a while. So if you’re listening and you’re like, oh, I’m going to wait to order. Don’t wait to order, because it will be a little while. And we’ll always give you guys a heads up when the old meals are going to phase out for a little bit. Usually we have, I don’t know, a week or two sometimes of overlap on some of the older meals. Every now and then there’s a bit of what I’ll call overrun, where obviously the kitchen is going to make meals in multiples of 100, and if we don’t sell that exact amount. Or if we didn’t have that exact amount, they’re not going to only make 2 extras. They’re going to make a bunch extra. So sometimes there’s a little bit more, so we’ll have those on hand for people who want to stock up.

And then, in Balanced Bites spices land, I’m really excited. Because we should be getting, when this episode airs, our little mini sampler pack that has been only available to meals customers. Because we just didn’t have a ton; we didn’t have a huge quantity of these. So I was only allowing our folks buying meals to add it on. But we will have a mini sampler pack. So this is like a quarter of an ounce. You can think it’s about a tablespoon or two of a spice blend. And it’s a flavor sample.

So if you’re like; I don’t even know what diner blend means, you can get this sampler back. It’s every flavor, and we have 12 flavors. And you get to try them all. And you get to figure out either you love all of them, or if there are a couple that aren’t your favorites, and you can come back and order jars of the ones that you love. So I’m excited for those.

And that’s when that new packaging that I talked about way back on the show when we were talking about what we were working on. It was another what’s on my plate; working on the development for this custom packaging; custom printed. It looks very real; wait to you see it. It’s like a real brand. It’s very exciting. So that’s going to be rolling out soon, too. So I’m just, can’t wait to get my hands on it.

We’ll share a sneak peak of maybe what that looks like over on our Driven Instagram. So what is going on over in the great state of Texas?

Cassy Joy: {laughs} Well, I got some really exciting geeky news this morning. Well, yesterday, or maybe two days ago, I cracked open a new Focus Planner. I use the Focus Planner by Michael Hyatt, who wrote the book Free to Focus. I am such a fan of his work, and what that entire team does; the free to focus team.

Anyway, I cracked open the planner; I think I go through about one a quarter. Maybe it’s a little bit longer than that.

Diane Sanfilippo: Is it dated?

Cassy Joy: It’s not dated. You can add your own dates. And it’s not a full year. So you’re not having to carry around an encyclopedia, right? With you, which I really like. Anyway, I cracked open a new one. It’s so exciting. And I tagged him on Instagram, and he reposted it and responded, and I showed everybody!

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughing}

Cassy Joy: I was like; oh my gosh, Michael Hyatt knows who I am-ish! He at least saw my Instagram message! He reshared it. I was geeking out. And then, Diane; get this. It gets better; the plot thickens. So Michael Hyatt has a co-hosted show with Megan Hyatt-Miller, right? And their podcast is called Lead to Win. And in their newest episode, episode number 91; it’s a great show if you’re really all about business and personal development. If you’re listening to this show, there’s a good chance you’re a crossover category and you would be a good listener.

But they created an episode about how to create more margin in your personal life. And I listened to the whole episode; it was really helpful. Some really cool tips and apps that they talk about. And a lot of it follows the same method he overviews in Free to Focus. But, guess what they mention as one of the tools as a way to, gosh what was it? To eliminate in your life? It was Cook Once, Eat All Week.

Diane Sanfilippo: {gasp}

Cassy Joy: My second book!

Diane Sanfilippo: I love it!

Cassy Joy: Isn’t that so exciting?!

Diane Sanfilippo: That’s such a little, like, Easter egg. Like this little discovery in the episode. Did they; had they recorded that beforehand? Probably.

Cassy Joy: I did not know about it.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, these are probably totally separate things. They didn’t see that and say; oh, we’re going to feature her.

Cassy Joy: No.

Diane Sanfilippo: They were already doing that.

Cassy Joy: Right! They recorded this episode.

Diane Sanfilippo: So, that is so fun!

Cassy Joy: It was so neat.

Diane Sanfilippo: I love it.

Cassy Joy: It’s just very serendipitous; worlds overlapping, and I just feel so special. The world is so small, and you just never know when you’re going to cross paths in some form or fashion with your mentor. Michael Hyatt, even when Megan was going over it; “And it has shopping lists!”

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughing}

Cassy Joy: I was like, yes! Yes it does! {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: That is such a perfect story for this episode. I love it.

Cassy Joy: It is. I love that. So I had to share that. Other things going on right now; Diane and I are both getting ready for the holiday season. Which is a really big season for Beautycounter. We’re both managing directors with Beautycounter, and if you are a consultant, you’re nodding your head a long. This is one of the busiest, busy times of the year. And it’s a really exciting time to do this business. And if you’re on the fence; this is a great time to start this business because it feels like the ball just rolls downhill a little bit. It’s when folks are naturally talking about what they’re using and sharing.

And then my last update is we’re moving my business, Fed and Fit, from a project management system. We have been using Asana for the last maybe three solid years. We talked about that when we talked about systems here on Driven before. And I think we’re going to evolve and transition over to Trello. I’ve got some team members that are big Trello fans, and have backgrounds in it. And I, as a Gretchen Rubin Rebel cannot be told what to do.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughing}

Cassy Joy: {laughs} And I was like; whatever, I looked at Trello for all of 0.3 seconds. Didn’t like it. Didn’t seem as robust as what we were using with Asana. And it’s not, and now I see the beauty in the simplicity. And I see just how much that will allow our team members to engage without giving them another system to learn. They can just get to work right away. So, I’m excited, but I’ll keep y’all posted if I have any major lessons learned. But Trello seems like an answered prayer.

Diane Sanfilippo: That’s cool. I’m curious to hear about that. I know a lot of people also use Slack for communication with a team. My team isn’t quite big enough to need an additional layer. We’re using Voxer to just kind of have a chat thread; like the office water cooler, almost. But Asana for me; it has been great. But I know we looked at Trello at a different point in time. I want to stay updated and hear. Because Trello seems more visual, which I thought I would like. So I just want to hear what happens. Because it’s turning out that Asana works for me because it keeps me from getting visually distracted. But yeah, we’ll hear the update as time goes on.

Cassy Joy: I’ll share all. {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: A tell-all episode.

2.  Shop Talk: Writing a Book [10:55]

Diane Sanfilippo: Now it’s time for Shop Talk. In this segment, we talk about topics that are on both our minds and yours. We’ll cover all sides of the issue, and hopefully land somewhere concise, actionable, and helpful. And, why don’t you kick us off, Cassy?

Cassy Joy: Oh man. I am pumped. This is a big topic. Today we’re talking about writing a book; I capitalized all those words, and there are lots of exclamation points after it. It’s a big topic, and it’s a burning question for a lot of you who maybe are a new business owner. Maybe you’re thinking about getting into business. Or maybe you’re an established person with your own creation out there in the world.

So, to start our conversation. And it is a long; we could talk endlessly about this. We could do miniseries upon miniseries of it. We’re going to break it down, to kick it off, with some very honest pros and cons about writing a book. Because Diane and I, when we were brainstorming this episode, some thing we felt very passionately and very strongly about was we don’t want folks getting into a project of this magnitude blind. We want you to walk in at least having kind of an idea of what all is involved. I’m sure Diane will say this because it’s so true. You just don’t really know until you go through it. But we want to do what we can to inform you.

Diane Sanfilippo: Although part of me loves it when people do blindly go into it, and then they’re handing in their manuscript and they’re like; that was terrible, and I can’t believe you’ve done that this many times. And I’m like; welcome. Welcome to the club. Thank you.

Cassy Joy: {laughing}

Diane Sanfilippo: Anyway. I’ll get into that in a minute.

Cassy Joy: It is welcome to the club, for sure. There is a comradery amongst folks who have actually done it.

Diane Sanfilippo: You have a huge list for us where you’re just going to clear the decks and run through all these different parts to it. And then what we’re going to do today is really focus on the pros and cons, which is kind of just the tip of the iceberg of what Cassy is going to rattle off here. So don’t worry, we have two more episodes outlined for this miniseries. Then we’ll do a Q&A, and we will probably come back with a lot more about almost; I don’t know if it will be kind of like; this is before you even write the book in the beginning stages. We might do another miniseries on while you’re writing the book. And then another one on marketing it. Because there is so much to talk about with a book. So we don’t want to just skim over everything. So, brace yourselves for this long list. But don’t worry, we’re going to do some deep diving in a second.

Cassy Joy: Yes. Ok, so if this is you’re sitting; you have a seat on a high-speed train, and you’re just driving by all of the stops that are going to be along the way of writing a book. This is what’s going to flash by your window. So number one; quick overview of the scope of writing a book. You have a burning desire to do it. Right? That’s do not pass go. Number two; you do your market research. Very important step. Number three; you prove your concept. And that is actually going to be part two of this miniseries, so we’ll explain more on what that means.

The next part; you’re going to outline, you’re going to test it. Even if it’s a recipe style book or some sort of; it doesn’t have to be necessarily a fitness program for you to test your concept. You’re going to test it against your audience; we’ll talk about that. You’re going to provide it again, you’re going to test again, you’re going to reoutline it, you’re going to edit it, you’re going to improve. And then you’re going to rinse and repeat until you have a real diamond.

You’re going to build a couple of chapters; rough outline. But you’re going to put your work into actually building chapters, and get your head wrapped around format. Format and outlining is going to be the third part of this miniseries, so we’ll explain more on what that is.

Next up; and not necessarily in this order, but I plugged it in here. You might find a book agent at this point, at this stage in the game. Most published authors do work with an agent, but it’s not a requirement. We can chat about that at some point. You would then propose your book in a very traditional sense to a publisher or multiple publishers if that’s the route you choose to go. Sometimes a publisher will find you, sometimes you will find a publisher and develop an idea together. But usually you go through a proposal process, which again, could be a whole episode.

You will then sign a contract, settle on the deadline, choose number of pages. You would decide the number of recipes, the number of photos, and the marketing efforts around the book. Again; this is high speed.

Then, once all the signatures are on the dotted lines, you’re going to work, work, work, work your buns off. This is really where you get to dig in. It’s like finals season. You are writing your thesis paper. This is when you’re really in the throes of the work. You’re going to coordinate with your team if you have one. Or if you don’t have a team, as in you’re not bringing in an extra photographer or you’re not bringing in an outside editor; then you improve your skills to make it all happen as a one-man ship. Which Diane and I have both done on our own.

Then you turn it in. And you think you’re done, but you’re not. You’re barely halfway through the list. Because then you edit, edit, edit. Which is almost as much work as writing the darn book the first time. You’re going to have more rounds of edits than you probably think. It’s good to wrap your head around this will never end, because one day when it does end, you’ll be surprised that it ended so soon! Did that make sense? That’s how I have to talk myself into it so I’m not disappointed.

Then you will review the design, and you’ll go back and forth on the design and the look of the book with the designer, yadda-yadda. They’ll choose a cover; you’ll anguish over the cover. You will eventually just submit to the cover that’s chosen, because you eventually have to choose one, you’re chasing a deadline. You will review marketing collateral. Meaning what does the marketing stuff look like. What’s our plan around getting the book out into the world?

Presale finally happens. Now you can tell the world the book is available for preorder. Right? What an exciting day. And look at how much work went into it before that. And often times, you don’t find out about an author having written a book until that point. Because it’s not until then that they’ve got a cover and an official title that they can really tell you about all the work that went into it. So that’s always interesting to me, because like Diane said, it’s a good analogy. It’s just the tip of the iceberg of how much work has been put into it already.

Then you work your buns off some more getting preorders. Because preorders then can determine how many orders are typically, theoretically ordered by stores across the world. Distribution is what it’s called. Then you launch! Congratulations! Your book birthday! And then you work your buns some more by promoting and telling all about your hard work. You respond to press, if press is asking for you, with praise. Right? You pursue press. You answer questions. You use your book in real life. By this point, you’re two years in and you’re probably over it; but this is the time. This is not the time to quit.

I say, and this is my last bullet point on this high-speed train pass by, but I say; commit yourself to a 12-month promotional period after a book comes out at least. Because that is, to do yourself the respect of the amount of work and effort and planning and thought and heart and soul that goes into a book, you owe yourself at least a year of promotion afterwards. I would really commit to that. For example, with Cook Once, Eat All Week, it sounds like it’s been out for a while. But it’s a little over 6 months in, and I look at it as; we’re halfway. I’ve got the holiday season ahead of us. And then once we’re done with this, I will move on to another project.

Do you think that’s a fair representation?

Diane Sanfilippo: I do. And it depends on what folks want to do with a book. But if you are trying to actually earn money from the book; and we’ll talk about that in a second with the pros and the cons. But, you actually never stop talking about it, in a way. Unless you’re ready to not have it actually be selling much anymore. Especially if you have a book that sells really well; which is not most books in general, percentage wise. You’ll notice there are some folks out there who you’re like; they are still talking about that book they wrote forever ago. Well; no one else is going to talk about it if they don’t.

Cassy Joy: That’s true.

Diane Sanfilippo: So you have to be the one to create that platform for it. Yeah.

Cassy Joy: That’s a great point.

3.  Shop Talk: Pros and Cons [18:53]

Diane Sanfilippo: Should we jump into pros and cons?

Cassy Joy: Let’s do it!

Diane Sanfilippo: I’m going to start with some pros. And here’s the thing; when we talk about the pros and the cons, these are why this thing must be burning. And I have talked about this a lot in; I don’t know, every place I talk to people where I’m coaching and I’m helping entrepreneurs figure out what to do next, what to prioritize. It has to be burning, because what Cassy just said; you’re in this thing for years. Right? You have to be so passionate about it, and so excited about it. Because even when you write the book, you’re not going to want to be writing it about halfway through; you’re going to want to give up. And when it’s done, it’s not even done, it’s just the beginning. And it is sort of like giving birth, from the moms I know. That is just the beginning, right? It’s like, you’re in it for so long.

Ok, so here’s why it must be burning. A pro is that it’s a published work. It’s printed. Someone decided you were good enough. You had something to say. It’s a real stamp of approval to be published. It gives you clout and credibility, especially for larger media outlets. And an interesting thing I think about larger media outlets now in the wave of social media, there is definitely, of course, impact that will come from mainstream media. But even watching what’s happening with Cook Once, Eat All Week, where you’ve gotten plenty of media coverage. But perhaps not the mainstream media coverage that some folks might thing. You’re still selling tons of copies.

We are the new media. Ourselves, our peers, our community. But it is nice to have this clout and credibility. Having a book is basically some sort of ticket. Whether it’s a coach ticket, or a first-class ticket, or whatever it is. It is some sort of ticket to this bigger media exposure. So I’m sure you’ve had this experience when you go on TV, or you do some kind of media interview; there are folks around you who have written books, too. And there are these other people who might not have a big following. But they’ve written a book. So that really gets them in the door.

So it’s something to keep in mind as this way to kind of have a ticket. And the thing is; being able to actually market it and talk about it is so much easier when it’s a physical object. And a lot of the work that a lot of us do with coaching, with educating, with recipes. It’s digital. And when you have digital content; that isn’t something that can easily translate out into the real world/regular world.

It’s also; digital content is not something that will always translate to multiple generations. Whether it’s a really little kid who you’re not going to be like; come look at my computer screen and flip through these recipes with me. Or, your grandma. You’re not going to say; come sit, even at the iPad. Even flipping through an iPad isn’t the same as flipping through a book. There is something different that happens that we’re able to span this generational impact with a physical book.

The reach is far larger than just social media when you write a book; and I am a shining example of this. So Practical Paleo, my first book, that came out in 2012. That book has sold over half a million copies. I don’t know how many now, it might be; I mean, it’s more than that. That was three years ago. That was kind of the mark of the first edition. And you all see me on social media; I have like 120,000 followers on social media. I do not have half a million fans and followers. I don’t know that many people. So, people tell other people. They can physically pass something on and say; hey, here it is.

And then, the other pro is, along those lines of this being a physical thing. Someone comes into your house, and you’ve got it on your countertop. You have it on your bookcase, your coffee table, whatever. It is a way to share it. Again, it’s that physical thing. You kind of become a household name for a lot of people. We say “household name” but talking about Gretchen Rubin’s four tendencies. For us; Shop Talk is household talk.

I’ve had folks just this week; somebody said to me she was building a salad at the salad bar, I don’t know, at Whole Foods or something, and she’s putting together a keto Italian hoagie salad, the way that I would; and her husband was like, oh what are you making? And she’s like, oh it’s a Diane salad. And he goes, oh. And was trying to remember my last name, and he kind of got it almost. Because, you know, it’s a long name. And she corrected him. It was just this cute little exchange.

And for me, for anybody who loves the idea of being able to reach a lot of people and find of touch their lives in this positive impactful way, that makes my whole day, that somebody is making my salad and talking to their husband. Just nothing sounds more fun to me than being part of your little lunch date.

And the last thing I have as a pro, for a lot of us who are out here educating, writing blogs, as I said. Working on the internet. If you’re not making a product otherwise, having a book is like; you made a thing. There is a physical representation of this hard work that you did. And we’re on a video chat right now. And a bunch of my books are behind me on the bookshelf. And I’m just so filled with pride when I get to look behind me on the bookshelf and there are one, two, three, there are five different titles that are mine. Then a sixth, if you count the fact that I rewrote Practical Paleo to release a second edition. I did rewrite it. And then I guess a seventh title, to look at a book I co-authored with some friends; Mediterranean Paleo Cooking.

And that is like this anthology of almost a decade of my life. Going through this process that we’re talking about today; over and over again. Kind of getting a little better at it, maybe, each time. Maybe not, we’ll see.

There’s nothing like it. But because there’s nothing like it, I think it is one of the hardest things to really get through. And it is such an honor to be able to do. So I’m extremely grateful to have been able to do it this many times. And I’m thinking about what will come next in the future, and this idea that you were talking about; it’s going to take this many years, and remembering this whole workshopping it and all of that. Whatever it will be next; it’s still churning. I don’t have it on the tip of my tongue, and I’m not burning about that thing yet. And until that’s happening; until I’m like; this is it. It’s not going to happen. Because I know it has to be proven, I have to be burning about it, and it has to be an, “I cannot not write this thing.” It has to be that important to actually go through this whole process. So those are my pros.

Cassy Joy: Amen. Amen, sister!

Diane Sanfilippo: Do you have more pros?

Cassy Joy: I love it! You know, I was thinking, while you were talking. To just underline and exclamation point what Diane just said about; you have to get to this head space of, “I cannot not write this thing.” For example; Cook Once, Eat All Week. Y’all. It’s something that I had really dabbled in. I used it as a local TV really fun food segment. Here’s three ways to use sweet potatoes and chicken. And three different dinners.

That’s how this started; I went on local TV. The same one I was on this morning. And I created this segment for their viewers. And then all of a sudden what we did is we built it into that month-long series for www.FedandFit.com to kick off my maternity leave. And, it was when I realized with the combination of the shopping lists and the prep day instructions that we used to expand that series for the website, for www.FedandFit.com. Seven days in, I was like; I cannot not expand this concept and turn this into a book. It has to happen. I know the baby is due any second now, and she was. Well, she was born 2.5 weeks later. She took her time. But, you have to be in that headspace of; I know circumstances look nuts. And it seems wild. But I have to write this book. And I totally agree with you there.

Other pros of writing a book; I mean, really, if you are looking to use it a buoy for other areas of your business, it offers a lot of authority. And someone gave me that advice. They said; authorship equals authority. It might have been you, many moons ago. I don’t know where I heard it. No, she’s shaking her head no.

They said, authorship equals authority. And if you are in your industry, you know that you have a unique voice that you could use to contribute to the world. But you’re lacking that authority because there are so many voices. That’s how you bubble to the top. That’s how you become somebody that folks might reference above others, is if you have authority. You have references. You have people who recognize you as an effort. You’ve created unique, usable tools that are solving unique problems for people. A book is a way to do that. So that’s another underscore there. But I think that was a really great list.

4.  Shop Talk: Cons of writing a book [28:16]

Cassy Joy: I am going to be the yin to your yang, and I’m really excited to talk about the cons of writing a book. Again, while Diane and I were prepping for this episode, I joked with her because I said; I almost, when I talk to friends and mentor folks one on one, I find myself trying to talk them out of writing a book.

Diane Sanfilippo: Ditto.

Cassy Joy: Right?

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah, for sure. 100%. Because if they still want to do it {laughs} after all that.

Cassy Joy: Yeah, exactly. If you still want to do it after everything I’m about to tell you, and you still are burning, and you’re still like; yeah, but it has to happen. Then by all means, we have got your back. But, I’m about to do my best to educate you on the full landscape. And if you decide you want to go for it anyways, by all means. I can’t wait to see what you come up with.

So the number one con that I have here is, you will likely make less money off of it than you think you will. Unless it’s a unicorn of a project. Unless it’s a unicorn of a book. So, Practical Paleo is a unicorn. Cook Once, Eat All Week is a unicorn. I knew that I was putting out a great resource; but there’s a little bit of magic. Diane has talked about it before. There’s a little bit of magic involved; it’s the right book at the right time hitting the right people sharing about it in the right way. Right?

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah.

Cassy Joy: Yes, it’s a great resource.

Diane Sanfilippo: And you’re the right voice for it at that time, too. That’s something that, over time, I have come to finally own. I never thought I had imposter syndrome, but I realize deflecting the quality of work that I did in Practical Paleo for so long has been a little bit of that. So I’m going to give you a gold star; I’m going to explain this for one second. With Practical Paleo, it was the wave of paleo at that time. So there were lots of paleo books coming onto the scene, and so I just kind of thought; right place, right time, right book. But also right voice, and right person to be able to create this resource in a way that people liked and understood and didn’t feel what’s alienating or divisive or any of that.

And the difference is that person. It’s you. The person who is; when you’re listening, if you’re like; but what do I have to say about this thing, right? There are all these people releasing books on this. For Cassy, this moment is actually a meal prep moment. Meal prep is something that has always been out there. But meal prep is definitely having a moment. And the cool thing is it’s very expansive. It’s not specific to only one dietary thing. But the difference is Cassy, and the way she took a concept and said; here’s my take on it. Here’s what I think can help you do this in a way that makes it more simplified, more accessible, what have you.

So I think that’s the thing. Yes, there’s a magic moment of like meal prep is exciting for people. Everybody wants to simplify. But the way that you’re doing it is so different than other people. So anyway. Gold star.

Cassy Joy: Thank you. Thank you. You know what; maybe I do suffer from imposter syndrome there, as well. Because I don’t always think about that. But I think it is fair. Using Fed and Fit, my first book, which came out in August 2016 as a good example. Are you comfortable with me sharing real numbers? Because I’m happy to share real numbers.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs}

Cassy Joy: I’m not asking you to share numbers, but I want to share.

Diane Sanfilippo: Oh, I mean I will. And I can actually give the reverse story, right? So go for it.

Cassy Joy: Ok. Yes. And Cook Once, Eat All Week has been an entirely different animal. But Fed and Fit, just to give you an example. It came out in 2016. That was 5 years into building a business. 5 years into Fed and Fit. That’s a good amount of time. You might think I should be earning some money. I should be in the, what is it? The red? The black. Not the red. {laughs} I should be doing well. The balance sheet should be positive at this point in time. I invested two years; I did not take an advance. It wasn’t an option at that time. And I invested; which I’ll talk about, my own time and my own money into this book. And the first check that I got was very exciting. It was $60,000. And I had sold I think 25,000 copies. Or 20-something; 22,000 copies. So you earn; I earned on that book about $3 a book.

And then I was working with a business partner, Juli Bauer Roth, who is still a dear friend of mine, of PaleOMG. I invited her into the book because I’m obsessed with collaborations, and book writing can be very lonely. Which is something else we’re going to talk about. She came in, and did all the fitness pieces for this book. And I was so excited to work with her on it. And we also had a program together. So I gave her 15% as essentially her cut of the intellectual property that she poured into the book.

So, I was left with 85% of that $60,000. And I’ll be honest with you; that barely, if anything, covered my expenses. My hard expenses. Cost of groceries, for example, that went into developing that book. And it’s a great book; I stand by it. I’m still very proud of it. I gave that thing my all. If you have a copy of it.

Diane Sanfilippo: Oh yeah. I mean, how much a book sells is really not about just the actual quality of the content.

Cassy Joy: The quality.

Diane Sanfilippo: And we can talk about that later when we talk about marketing and all of that. But there are books out there that are not great content, and they have amazing publicity.

Cassy Joy: Yes. Exactly! So Cook Once, Eat All Week, on the other side of that coin, for example, has had incredible publicity, thanks to you. Like Diane said; the marketplace has shifted. It’s not national press that’s moving the needle on books. It’s word of mouth. It’s person to person, peer to peer, neighbor to neighbor, pickup line to pickup line, parent to each other. That’s how you move the needle at large.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughs} Not a pickup line at a bar. Like, kid pickup.

Cassy Joy: {laughs} I was thinking toddlers.

Diane Sanfilippo: And not you, as in me, Diane. Thanks to you; those of you listening who have bought the book. I was like; wait, are they going to think it’s thanks to me? Because it’s definitely not thanks to me. I mean, I know I made us go to The Today Show, and hold your book up. But that wasn’t it. {laughing}

Cassy Joy: {laughs} We did do that. Oh my gosh, I was so nervous. Diane; we were in New York City, hopeful. Hopeful for press you guys. This is a great story of a lot of hope and not a lot of traction where I thought I would get it. And I got it where I didn’t expect it. And it made it a bigger success than I ever would have thought. I was so hopeful for national press, and y’all, I didn’t really get any for Cook Once, Eat All Week. But we were there; we were in New York City. We were bright eyed and bushy tailed. Diane was like; you curl that hair, you put on those eyelashes. We’re going to go stand in the crowd of the Today Show. And I she’s standing behind me. I was so nervous. I was like; oh my gosh! I can’t believe I’m self-endorsing like this. And she’s waving the book above my head! {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: I never would have done it for myself. But for you, I was like; you put that green coat on. I’m like; tell everyone! Turn on the Today Show! And they saw us.

Cassy Joy: {laughs} They did. They did see us.

Diane Sanfilippo: It was good.

Cassy Joy: Your mom was sending us screenshots. Ok, I’m sorry. I digress.

Diane Sanfilippo: It was amazing. Ok. But we were talking about you are not really going to earn money from this book. So, to your point; I’m in a different situation. Practical Paleo was phenomenal for me, and then nothing else since then has sold quite as much. It’s all done well enough to be worth it financially and all of that. But they’re not all going to be home runs, that’s for sure.

Cassy Joy: Yeah. We’re not all retiring and calling up our alma mater and building a library in our names because we wrote a book. Because we can fund the building. That’s a true unicorn. So I just really want you to wrap your head around that. Authorship equals authority, not necessarily a massive payday. Unless you have a unicorn .and I would rather you be surprised than that than expectant of it.

Ok, the next one is; it is along this tune. The way I look at it in terms of all the things I can do in my business, writing a book is a hail Mary. It’s a lot of work. A lot of planning. You probably practice it in your season. You practice it before game time. Can you tell I like football?

Diane Sanfilippo: I just love this analogy. It is such a good one. I’m nodding emphatically to this.

Cassy Joy: Right? But these are not the runs. These are not the plays that you depend on to win the game. Because to win the game what do you have to do? You have to have a profitable, successful business that reaches people and solves problems.

Diane Sanfilippo: And a predictable outcome, at least somewhat. We cannot control what happens. We think we have so much control over this process; and we can control a lot of it. We can control what we do. We can control how hard we work. How well we do the research to write the content that’s going to work for people. We cannot; here’s a great example. We cannot control which celebrities are going to get divorced the day you’re trying to promote your book. Brangelina broke up when I was in Chicago trying to be on that morning news, and I got sidelined. And I was like; shakes fist. Brangelina! Seriously.

Cassy Joy: {laughs} That’s so true. You can’t control those things.

Diane Sanfilippo: You can’t control it.

Cassy Joy: That’s so it. That’s how I want you to wrap your head around it. If you have the space and the time and the energy and the burning desire to throw that hail Mary, I want you to do it. I want nothing more than it to be a success. I want you to win the game. I want it to blow your socks off. And I want to hear about it. I want you to write to us and tell us about it. Or heck; maybe we’ll be writing to you asking you how you did it, because we’ll know about it by then. But it’s just that. A truly, financially successful book is a hail Mary catch.

Ok, next bullet point I have here as a con; this is going to sound a little woe is me, but it’s true you guys. It is hard to be original. It is really, really hard to be original. And you might be sitting here thinking; these are the tough conversations I have with folks one on one. They say; I want to write a book. I know I want to write a book. I have an audience. I have people I’m talking to. We have a great conversation about this kind of rough topic. And I want to write a book. Ok, great, what are you going to write about? Well, my voice and how I would write about it is what makes me original. And I say boo to that. I think that’s an element of it.

Yes, that is an element of it. Your personality, your voice, how you would approach it, how you would market it is icing on the cake. But what solution are you offering people that’s truly original and innovative? If not, it’s more noise. Not just for you to work on for several years at a time, but it’s more noise for them. So I just say; be respectful of the people who are going to be consuming your content. It’s time and energy. And I think that you have to offer them an original solution.

Diane Sanfilippo: I love that.

Cassy Joy: Maybe that’s a little persnickety.

Diane Sanfilippo: No, I love that. I think that’s the reason; so Keto Quick Start was my newest book, it came out; when did it come out? January of this year? Also feels like forever ago. Not quite a year ago. And admittedly that book was a little late for the wave of what people were doing in keto. But I was sitting on the concept or the approach that I’ve had to keto; which I was actually eating that way when I wrote Practical Paleo. So that’s how long I had been doing that. It just wasn’t something people were interested in way back then at the time I was doing it.

So, in order to decide; I’m going to put another resource out there, right? It’s not just, it’s my take. It’s my take, and here’s a unique resource with a way to approach this that I don’t see people doing that I think is effective and will really help people. Especially the people who are trying to use something similar. And that’s not working for them.

So what I mean by that; I’ll just give people a really tiny view. A lot of folks in the keto space, which was a high-fat, low-carb way of eating, they teach people to lower their protein and add extra fat. And I’m like; well, if you’re having trouble losing weight, that is a really not smart approach. {laughs} I need to up your protein, because it’s highly satiating, and you don’t need to add lots of extra fat. because if you’re burning fat for fuel, you’re going to burn your body fat. So I’m going to show people how to do this. How to eat low carb, and how to actually do it with real food. So there’s that thing.

And what I said earlier; the difference is you. To your point here; it’s you and your unique solution. Not just your point of view. But you’ve got a solution that’s different, and works for people when other things are not working. And I think that’s so important.

Cassy Joy: Yes. Absolutely. Ok, my next con is that it will demand all of your attention. Hear me. I want you to hear me to the depths of your soul. If you are an enneagram 3, or a number like me; 8s we’re very similar.

Diane Sanfilippo: 1s.

Cassy Joy: 1s are very similar.

Diane Sanfilippo: Maybe a 7. Because you’re not going to want to hear that, if you’re a 7.

Cassy Joy: Nope, exactly. You’re listening to this and you’re like; bring it on baby! You are not discouraged. You are all in, and that’s good. You need that fire and you need that believe in yourself that you can do this. But I want you to hear me; as a mother, as a wife, as someone who my family and my friendships are very important to me, I’m building a big business in addition to the books that I’m writing, and I have other dreams and passions I am pursuing. Writing a book in that crunch time when you are in a really high focus funnel, it demands all of your attention. And you need to be prepared for that. It is a major con.

For example; as a mother with a toddler, and another baby on the way, this book, the third book I’m working on right now, is perfectly timed because I know that major focus of time is going to happen before a baby because I would not be willing to do it if it happened after the baby was born. Because I know how much time is required and the childcare I would need in order to make that happen. Which I’m happy to invest in, when it’s the right season for our life. But it will demand all of your attention. Your family will feel it. Your friends will feel it. Your extended family will feel it, and your business will feel it. So I want you to go in with eyes wide open.

It demands, as much as you can go in and think; I’m going to share this responsibility with a co-author; I’m going to share it with a team. It’s still yours. And you will focus on it.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. And my underscore, underline, exclamation point note here that I had that was exactly the same. You’re clearing the decks of other work, essentially. It’s basically everything else that you do keeps going, but you can’t do anything else big or important. You already relaunched your website. All of these things have already happened. Expecting to do anything else big at the same time as writing a book is totally unrealistic. And that’s not to say there aren’t folks out there who are doing it, but a book deserves that much attention and focus. So when I think about doing it over the last however; six times I’ve gone through it. My team; team Balanced Bites can tell you; I’m basically incommunicado. Like, I’m like you guys; keep the lights on. Figure it out. Call me if you need me. But I’ll be over here trying to channel that moment where the right thought is in my head.

But really, it is about you have to make a lot of space for it. And to your point about your family commitments, your friends, etc. I think one thing people don’t expect is; this is going to sound really bad. And I don’t know if you had the same experience, because you generally have a much sunnier disposition than I do, just all things being equal. I’m just not that sunny all the time. I’m not in a great mood when I’m writing a book.

My husband will tell you. He was like; oh, thank god you’re not writing a book this year. {laughs} I’m just not in the best mood. And there’s no way around it, because there’s just a pressure. And it’s a pressure that no one else can help you with. No one can pull that weight off your shoulders. So to your point about even if you have a co-author; there’s always one person that kind of has that feeling of, it’s just weighing on me. You know?

Cassy Joy: Ownership. Mm-hmm.

Diane Sanfilippo: So even when I co-authored a book; the editing process, I took full ownership. Once it went through editing with my co-author, I was still like; my name is on this thing. I’m editing. I’m here. So anyway. I want people to know that. It is not just a; oh, it’s just a little side project. I’ll just write a book. Nu-huh.

Cassy Joy: Nu-huh. Nope. That’s such a great point. And you know, to follow the birth analogy that we’ve already talked about; I like to think of those crunch time; when you’re writing and editing the book. If you’ve ever had a maternity leave; that’s how checked out you are on the rest of your life. You’re focused on baby. You might be flipping through reviewing your emails, if you’re me, at the end of the night just seeing; I wonder how many hundreds I have unread now. But I’m not diving into anything and that’s about how checked out I am with the rest of my life when I’m focused on a book.

Ok, my next bullet point; and this is something that my friends who have written books, what we talk about. These are the conversations we have as buds over dinner; is it worth it? Because it pulls us away from making the real money. From really monetizing our businesses. So if you have a business that requires constant input on a monthly basis. Maybe you’re developing content. Maybe you’re working with sponsors. Maybe you are monetizing based on your individual promotional activities on social media. If you’re taking time to pour it into writing a book, you don’t have the time to pour it into those income producing activities. So it’s going to reduce; Diane’s taking a picture. {laughs} It’s going to reduce that income.

So when I’m talking to friends who have written books, they’re like; is it worth it to write it again? A lot of people are hesitant. Because in the year that it took them to write it, their income was significantly down because it took so much of their attention. So it will pull you away from other income producing activities. Keep that in mind. So my advice there, if you have the luxury of doing this. If the ember of this burning idea can wait just a little bit, create your business so that it can sustain itself as far as predictable, reliable income on a regular basis before you take on the book so that you can ride your own coat tails, so to speak, while you’re working on the book.

Diane Sanfilippo: Here, here.

Cassy Joy: Yes. Ok, my next bullet point; and this is kind of maybe; I don’t know. I felt very called to write this one in. But I want you to know; if you rush this concept because you feel like; “wah, I’ve got to get my name out there. I’ve got to get authority. I have to get the respect of my colleagues. I want to get the respect of everybody out there. I want to rattle the cage and say; here I am.” If you rush this. If you rush writing a book, I want you to remember you’re married to this title. You will always be the author of blah blah blah book.

And one of my favorite phrases in life, y’all, is go ugly early. I am a big believer in go ugly early.

Diane Sanfilippo: But not in print! {laughing}

Cassy Joy: Not in print. This is a big ship to turn around. Ok. And I’m not saying it’s impossible. There are authors out there who wrote wildly different books, and then transitioned.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yes. J. J. Virgin did that. “Six Weeks to Sleeveless and Sexy.” She rereleased as the Virgin Diet with modifications. But basically that was the book before. I think she probably regretted that original title {laughing}.

Cassy Joy: I love it. And that’s a good go ugly early testimony. But I just want you to walk in again with eyes wide open. It is a big ship to turn around. It doesn’t mean that you can’t; but it is something you’re going to have to reconcile if you rush your book concept and you decide your business is evolved differently.

The next one; we’ve touched on this already, but writing a book is very expensive. You may not think about it. Say it’s a cookbook. You might think; oh, we’re going to be buying groceries anyway. This is how I would rationalize it in my brain. We’re going to have buy groceries anyway. I’m going to have to make food anyway. We’ll just eat the food that I make for the book, and it will be the same. It will be a wash. And that’s just not how it works.

There were times when I was writing Fed and Fit; and that’s my favorite grind story, because it’s such a great book. And it was such an effort. And I did it all by myself. There were weeks that, towards the end of it; I was newly married. Or getting ready to get married. And I remember my mom called me. I was chasing this deadline. And she’s a business owner, y’all. She employs 200 people herself, in this architectural engineering world. In other words; she’s got her own stuff going on.

And she would call me and say; wouldn’t you know, mom, her mom radar went off. She was like; honey, how’s it going? Do you need my help? And I would break down in tears; I do! And she’d show up at my house, and she’d say; can I pick up anything at the grocery store? And I was like; thank god you asked. Here’s a grocery list of $450 of groceries that I can’t afford. And that was about two weeks’ worth. This sweet woman, who is just happy; thrilled to be able to do that for me at that stage in the game.

But it is expensive. Resources and time. The camera equipment. The backdrops. The time it takes; I just want you, again, eyes wide open.

My second to last bullet point on the cons is that it’s a very humbling activity. So this is why I think, even if you get through the grind, you have the burning idea, you figure out your expenses. You figure out a way to monetize your business outside of writing the book so that it survives. You come up with an original thought. You come up with an original idea. And you’re really proud of it, and you’re really excited. And you can see the potential of how it’s going to change the world. Then you go into editing, and you realize you are not all that and a bag of chips. Is that the phrase? There is still work. There are still things that can be improved upon. And it is a not; it feels like a never-ending process of yes, but.

You have to be ready for that. Your heart has to be ready for that. And I think that is why so many authors really start to get droopy through the editing process. Because you just; you’ve made it this far. It’s a marathon. You’re almost at the end of it, you feel, and someone is just throwing tomatoes at you is what it feels like {laughs}. So I want you to be ready for that. Ready for that stage.

And the last one, like I said, using this analogy again. But it is a marathon. Book writing and promoting the book is a genuine marathon. This is not a sprint. And if you don’t have the endurance for a marathon. If you are a personality type that is not ready to commit to three years of work around a concept. If you’re not ready to commit three years to it; two years of development and a year of marketing at least, then maybe this isn’t for you. Because this is not a sprint.

I’m going to write it; I’m going to slap a few blog posts together that I previously wrote. I’m going to put some pictures on, I’m going to pitch it to a publisher, and I’m going to make $100,000. It doesn’t work that way. You have to be ready for the marathon. And if you’re not, then I hate to say this; it may not be the best use of your time. I was going to say it kind of meaner. I was going to say it was going to be a waste of your time. But it may not be the best use of your time.

Diane Sanfilippo: After hearing your list of cons, I’m very proud of myself for having gotten through all of that. Because I tend to think I’m not; I’m really good at starting things. I’m not good at finishing them. But having a publisher and having a deadline and having a date that I say I want the book to come out; that has been the only way I’ve ever been able to actually finish it. Knowing if this book doesn’t release by this time, I didn’t get that thing that I was really going for. That has been the thing that got me through.

So a couple of things to add on. Because I’m with you on all those cons. And we’re hopeful that these cons are going to talk you out of writing a book. {laughs}

Cassy Joy: {laughs}

Diane Sanfilippo: Because if you’re still here, all that time later. So we talked about the time commitment. I want to emphasize how physically and emotionally hard the work of writing is. Especially if; I’m thinking of it this way. I am not a writer. I don’t consider myself a writer. It does not come easily to me. I write my books. I write those words. I’m grateful for editors. So your point about it being very humbling; it is. I actually love the editing process when it comes to making sure that my ideas that come out of my mouth and tend to be circular. Because I like to speak and teach, and repeating yourself when you’re speaking is a great way to emphasize and make sure people understood you and heard you. But you don’t do that when you write a book. Because your editor is like; you just said that three paragraphs ago. And I’m like; well, thank you.

So for me, I love that process because it is humbling. But it’s also empowering that I’m saying something that’s great, but also they’re going to make it better. And I love leaning on that. But it is very physically demanding because sitting at a desk. Maybe you can be on a treadmill desk, but there is no other way to get it done than words to the page. Pen to paper. Hands to keyboard. It’s really easy to think that you’ve got a book in you, and then you write about 10,000 words, and you’re like; oh. That’s a handful of blog posts. It’s not a book.

So I think that people just don’t grasp how hard it will be. And I think your point earlier about having a sample chapter, having things like that, helps to give people a little bit of perspective around how much work it is.

The other part of this is it is emotionally very difficult. Because it is so isolating. And it’s something that, if you’re lucky enough to be in the process where you have an editor. Maybe you have a coauthor. Anybody that can talk about the work with you; we’re lucky to have each other for this, too. Where if you want to talk about the hard, hard stuff; you know I know what it’s like. But unless someone has done that, they don’t know what it’s like. They don’t understand it. And it can put you in a really bad mood. It puts me in a really bad mood, because I feel a lot of pressure. So it can be very lonely and isolating. And I think those are things that a lot of authors will say it can feel that way.

For you type 1s out there; {laughs}, type 3s, even type 8s, type 6s. We’re talking enneagram types when we say that. There will be errors. There will be errors in the book. There will be more errors than you ever think can be there when you have read it six times. Or 20 times.

Also, someone like me, who is very visually oriented, I don’t have dyslexia, but I will not be able to see and read and comprehend words at the same time as I’m looking for visual errors and mistakes. So it is very easy for me to miss an error on the page when I’m looking at color. When I’m looking at fonts. When I’m looking at different things. So I might be reviewing the book for an edit, but there’s a pass where I’m not reading it. There has to be at least one pass where you’re just kind of looking at how does it look. So anyway, there will be errors. And you have to just be ready for that.

You may change your mind, or your take, about that topic. You might write a vegan book and then decide to not be vegan in a year when you realize that was not the best approach. So it’s pretty darn permanent. And you just have to be ok with the fact that things will change over time. You just have to be ok with that.

And I already talked about how writing a lot of content is actually harder than it seems. But then there’s the flip side of; page counts aren’t infinite. You might then realize you have a lot to say, and you don’t actually get to say it all in one book. And that’s really challenging for a lot of us. So those are some more cons.

Cassy Joy: I love it. And, you know, just to put a nicer cherry on this cake; nobody is going to be your bigger advocate than Diane and I. I think something that really unifies, us, though as business mentors; either talking with folks one on one or at large in the context of this podcast, is we really want you to be informed. We don’t want you walking into anything blind. And these are things that I wish I had known. And I did know in some degree, but I didn’t have this kind of an overview. And it wouldn’t have slowed me down. I wouldn’t have not pursued the same goals that I had. I might have done things slightly differently to make my life a little bit easier.

So I just; that’s really it at the end of the day. We just want you to be really informed when you make these decisions. And I want you to go get them! The rest of this; we will not be talking you out of writing a book the rest of these series.

Diane Sanfilippo: {laughing}

Cassy Joy: But we had to spend at least one episode doing it.

Diane Sanfilippo: Yeah. And we wanted to give you guys those pros and cons, because now Cassy is going into the process for a third time. I’ve gone through this process now; I don’t know how to count it, but it’s like 6 or 7 times. And neither of us knew what we know now when we first started, but we’ve still done it again. But with both more success and less success in the process. So we’re telling you all of this to give you the heads up that we never had. But also saying; even when you know, and you know how hard it’s going to be, we invite you to the process. We fully invite you to the process.

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5. Tip of The Week: Pros and Cons list [58:56]

Diane Sanfilippo: Ok, we’ve got a Tip of The Week. In this segment, we give you one tip you can take action on this week to move your business or life or your book forward. So, Cassy, why don’t you give us a tip this week.

Cassy Joy: Ok, I’m really excited about this one because it means you get to sit down with the people who are closest to you and invite them into this tip. So we want you to outline your own pros and cons. Maybe you’ve listened to this episode, and you have thought about your own pros and cons, and your own burning desires. You probably have more pros that you can add to your list. And I want you to write them down. If this is a decision that you have noodled in the past, that you thought; maybe I do want to do this. I think I do want to write a book; put pen to paper. Write a pro and con list. And talk it over with the people that would be most impacted by this new undertaking, and then make an informed decision. I’m not saying that as soon as you decide with your partner or your friends or your children; I’m not saying the very next day you go out and find a book agent. But at least it puts things into line in your mind and you will start pursuing and you will start putting the right dominos into place.

Diane Sanfilippo: That’s it for Driven this week. If you liked this episode, be sure to subscribe in Apple podcast, on Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcast. Follow us on Instagram; we might be @TheDrivenPodcast, or if we get to translate that account over, it will be @DrivenPodcast. So you’ll find us either way. Cassy is @FedandFit and I am @DianeSanfilippo. Be sure to tune in next week for more on writing a book. We’ll be talking about how to prove your concept. Ways of workshopping your ideas. And the time that this may, and probably will, all take. We’ll see you next week.